U.S. Debt Ceiling. 31.4 Trillion!

[SAJ-99]

I believe that private entities are more productive and efficient in spending and stimulating the economy than government entities. Unchecked government spending leads to inflation, which is a tax on everyone, rich and poor. We are all paying that tax right now.

I agree. See how easy that is. But you can’t forget your career benefited greatly from the largest government intervention in 2008 since the Great Depression in the largest government subsidized market of them all, housing. To dismiss the concept that government has a role ignores reality.

Also, the core concept of Keynes was for the government to provide money in slow times and extract it to pay the debt off in good times. Seems reasonable to me. We just never do it.

 

[antlerradar]

We all saw Donald paying zero taxes right... so because his business doesn't make a profit he should be able to give it to Don Jr. free a clear... a couple billion in assets because of paper losses.

Hyperbolic for sure, but the point stands who cares if running cows isn't profitable it's still passing assets worth millions

Just a hunch, I am betting Trump has employed those tax accountants and estate planners. Just a small part of the cost of doing business for him. Don Jr will be paying a very small percentage in estate taxes. The real reason the tax has largely failed at slowing the growth of the princelings.

For a rancher living on 40 grand a year those tax accountants and estate planners are a big expense you cannot avoid. Might have to lease the hunting to pay for them.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

You just listed three properties that are bumping up or will be soon with inflation on the estate tax. Two are unlikely to generate enough agricultural income to support even one family. The third is on the low end of production for a signal family.

Why is this a requirement? Selling it is enough to sustain the family for a loooooong time.

So you should be able to give enough principle to your kids so that they can live off the dividends and not have to sell any principle? Why?

It’s an asset period.

Also I just checked the IRS rules it’s per person so a couple could give their kids a ranch tax free worth 25MM.

No tears shed for the plight of the Montana rancher and taxes.

 

[BigHornRam]

I agree. See how easy that is. But you can’t forget your career benefited greatly from the largest government intervention in 2008 since the Great Depression in the largest government subsidized market of them all, housing. To dismiss the concept that government has a role ignores reality.

Also, the core concept of Keynes was for the government to provide money in slow times and extract it to pay the debt off in good times. Seems reasonable to me. We just never do it.

The government had a big part in the 2008 housing melt down. So did the lending institutions, as well as joe blow ultra leveraged real estate speculators. Zero down financing, get rich quick flipping house. It was all the rage right before everything hit the fan. Ray Charles could see what was coming. I stopped building new and hadn't built anything on speculation long before 2008. It didn't make sense to anyone remotely informed. Did mostly remodels, additions, barns and garages for most of the 2010 decade.

The more you try to make your points about an industry you know nothing about, you're only strengthening my points. So thanks.

 

[Handlebar]

Why is this a requirement? Selling it is enough to sustain the family for a loooooong time.

So you should be able to give enough principle to your kids so that they can live off the dividends and not have to sell any principle? Why?

It’s an asset period.

Also I just checked the IRS rules it’s per person so a couple could give their kids a ranch tax free worth 25MM.

No tears shed for the plight of the Montana rancher and taxes.

Because it is theirs not yours.

 

[SAJ-99]

The government had a big part in the 2008 housing melt down. So did the lending institutions, as well as joe blow ultra leveraged real estate speculators. Zero down financing, get rich quick flipping house. It was all the rage right before everything hit the fan. Ray Charles could see what was coming. I stopped building new and hadn't built anything on speculation long before 2008. It didn't make sense to anyone remotely informed. Did mostly remodels, additions, barns and garages for most of the 2010 decade.

The more you try to make your points about an industry you know nothing about, you're only strengthening my points. So thanks.

You're welcome, even if I think you can't see the forest for the trees. I would never argue there is no downside to government involvement. There are downsides to everything, including capitalism. We just have to make small adjustments on the margins, not blow the whole thing up and start over.

 

[antlerradar]

Why is this a requirement? Selling it is enough to sustain the family for a loooooong time.

So you should be able to give enough principle to your kids so that they can live off the dividends and not have to sell any principle? Why?

It’s an asset period.

Also I just checked the IRS rules it’s per person so a couple could give their kids a ranch tax free worth 25MM.

No tears shed for the plight of the Montana rancher and taxes.

Just pointing out the your statement "that in most cases the family farm or business isn't worth enough to make estate taxes relevant" is a bit misleading.

As for the 25 mm, that only works if both parents are still in the picture and even if one dies and give half to all the kids you are often setting up a host of other issues that will bit you in the hind end in the future.

 

[DouglasR]

Because it is theirs not yours.

Nuh uh it’s not theirs it’s just their turn bro

 

[antlerradar]

Why is this a requirement? Selling it is enough to sustain the family for a loooooong time.

So you should be able to give enough principle to your kids so that they can live off the dividends and not have to sell any principle?

I thought the estate tax was about reducing the number of princelings, not creating them.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

Because it is theirs not yours.

?

How is it different than me giving 25MM in stock to my kids? or just a big house not a ranch?

I thought the estate tax was about reducing the number of princelings, not creating them.

?

Like I said if you want to put in rules that permanently kills the value of the real estate to make the tax situation more amenable as a family business I think that's great, but this conversation is talking out both sides of your mouth.

 

[BigHornRam]

You're welcome, even if I think you can't see the forest for the trees. I would never argue there is no downside to government involvement. There are downsides to everything, including capitalism. We just have to make small adjustments on the margins, not blow the whole thing up and start over.

So let's get on with it and make some small adjustments. Like going back to the 2022 level of $1.664 trillion and limit subsequent annual increases to 1% for a decade.

Biden's budget vs. Republican debt ceiling bill on spending, deficits

President Joe Biden's administration and Republicans in the U.S. Congress are in talks to end their standoff over raising the $31.4 trillion debt ceiling, haggling over vastly different proposals that both claim to cut deficits by trillions of dollars.

www.reuters.com

 

[Red-Team 98]

One Day the chicken will come home to roost

 

[Handlebar]

?

How is it different than me giving 25MM in stock to my kids? or just a big house not a ranch?



?

Like I said if you want to put in rules that permanently kills the value of the real estate to make the tax situation more amenable as a family business I think that's great, but this conversation is talking out both sides of your mouth.

It is not different, I just find something distasteful about the inheritance tax

 

[SAJ-99]

So let's get on with it and make some small adjustments. Like going back to the 2022 level of $1.664 trillion and limit subsequent annual increases to 1% for a decade.

Biden's budget vs. Republican debt ceiling bill on spending, deficits

President Joe Biden's administration and Republicans in the U.S. Congress are in talks to end their standoff over raising the $31.4 trillion debt ceiling, haggling over vastly different proposals that both claim to cut deficits by trillions of dollars.

www.reuters.com

Sure. I like some things in the plan. Let's do more, like roll back some of those 2017 tax cuts too. Like I said before, the standard deduction is too high.

 

[SAJ-99]

It is not different, I just find something distasteful about the inheritance tax

Change the scenario. "Bob" starts a business and 5 yrs later sells it to Sally for $1m, but gets to keep 20% of the equity. Bob retires, or whatever, Sally builds the business over the next 20yrs, including going public and allows 50% of the equity to float (trade on exchange). Stock market does what it does, Sally does what she does, the value of the business over that 20yrs goes from $1m to $100m. Bob now has $20m in equity. He decides to "gift" it to his children Should they pay tax on that $19m? Let's be honest, Bob didn't do squat.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

It is not different, I just find something distasteful about the inheritance tax

I can understand that perspective.

To me it always seemed the most fair, every generation has to pay their own way in the world.

I respect individuals not family names.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

Change the scenario. "Bob" starts a business and 5 yrs later sells it to Sally for $1m, but gets to keep 20% of the equity. Bob retires, or whatever, Sally builds the business over the next 20yrs, including going public and allows 50% of the equity to float (trade on exchange). Stock market does what it does, Sally does what she does, the value of the business over that 20yrs goes from $1m to $100m. Bob now has $20m in equity. He decides to "gift" it to his children Should they pay tax on that $19m? Let's be honest, Bob didn't do squat.

Willy wins a battle in 1066, no one in his family works for 1000 years...

 

[Mallardsx2]

The American system is set up for people to take risks and not have default/bankruptcy ruin them. It has worked well for almost 250yrs.

And here we are......all of us, in one big happy country, inadvertently paying for everyone's sins.

People who take unnecessary risks and fail should be ruined. It's their choice to succeeded or fail and imho there should be no government protection/safety net. Govt bailouts are promoting bad behavior and have been for far too long at the taxpayers' expense.

 

[BigHornRam]

Sure. I like some things in the plan. Let's do more, like roll back some of those 2017 tax cuts too. Like I said before, the standard deduction is too high.

Use your standard deduction savings and buy roof top solar panels at retail with it. Good for you, and good for the solar panel business person. No middleman making it harder for both of you.

 

[Handlebar]

Change the scenario. "Bob" starts a business and 5 yrs later sells it to Sally for $1m, but gets to keep 20% of the equity. Bob retires, or whatever, Sally builds the business over the next 20yrs, including going public and allows 50% of the equity to float (trade on exchange). Stock market does what it does, Sally does what she does, the value of the business over that 20yrs goes from $1m to $100m. Bob now has $20m in equity. He decides to "gift" it to his children Should they pay tax on that $19m? Let's be honest, Bob didn't do squat.

Bob busted his but and built a brand that Sally believed in, she improved upon it and made it prosper further. Bob enjoys the shade of a tree that he planted much earlier.