True hunters or just Greenies in disguise?

[Muledeer4me]

"as we see here in SI almost everyday as they defend welfare ranching, clearcutting, mining, ATV destruction, more FS roads, etc.! It amazes me that they claim to love hunting, but are willing to let wildlife habitat be destroyed! Just doesn't make any sense! "

Again we see how some poster's only put the spin on what has been said to try to further there own agenda.
I dont know where anyone on here has supported the destriction of wildlife habitat or that support's ATV destriction .
The word GREENIE get's used to decribe those people in the green movement that are so hell bent on forcing there will on all of us that they can't see that there are other's that are into protection of the invironment ,they have the blinder's on so tight that the only thing they see is that someone else's footprint's aren't following directly in step with there's and so by god they have to be wrong.

 

[Ithaca 37]

MD4M, Just in case you haven't figured this out yet; anyone who supports the Blue Ribbon Coalition is supporting the destruction of wildlife habitat. Destruction of wildlife habitat and destruction of the environment. That's what happens when you build ATV trails into areas where there aren't any. That's what the BRC advocates---more and bigger trails. More noise pollution and more air pollution. More disturbance of wildlife. Less sanctuary areas for wildlife.

There's no denying it and no way to get around it. Wake up and smell the coffee, or else explain why more ATV trails are not bad for wildlife.

So far you've backed down on every challenge to defend welfare ranching and to explain what's bad about the Western Gamebird Alliance (what this topic is about). WGA is definitely a very pro environment organization dedicated to hunting and enhancing gamebird populations. Are they good or bad?

 

[ELKCHSR]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Elkchsr- So you support some of these 'green' groups? The good ones. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Rocky mountain elk foundation!
What I support is some of the ideas that come out that are actually good, the problem is with most is they want to take it to the extreme, but won't live what they in reality preach. So I in good faith can't follow along with most all of them, some would say that you have to take some of the good with the bad, I say hogwash, when a good idea comes along, stick with it, don't clutter it up or drag it down with a bunch of crap!

 

[Muledeer4me]

"Topic: True hunters or just Greenies in disguise? "
I think the topic was a genreal question on what a greenie is.
Not about where we feel your pet org. sit's,or how much better Bird hunter's are then the rest of us.
Again using motorized recreation does not have to mean a person is raping the land & causing wide spread destriction.

The Blue Ribbon Colation isnt about building trails ALL OVER THE PLACE TO CAUSE DAMAGE LOL.
They are about being able to use public land's in a responsble manner,not just for HUNTER's,but for a wide range of user's.
They are not an uppety group that think's they have all the right's to deciding what everyone should do.
BIG difference in supporting the destriction of habit and supporting a group that like's to enjoy the outdoor's riding an ATV or driving a pick-up.
It's so clear Ithaca that the only thing you are for is a very restricted use of public land's ,or is it NO USE?
Not all of us have the desire to be little Ithaca clone's tip-toe'ing across the landscape with a shotgun across our shoulder pretending to be more moral and above the rest of creation.
That is what I call a GREENIE.
Someone that think's they have all the answer's to everything and think's the only use is very limited use by the elite few of there high moral and elite standards.
There view's are very limited ,there though's on other's is very limited,and it's there way or nothing at all.
They are usually one step away from stopping all hunting and fishing because of there limited view's of what's right and wrong,and there non-support of others people's freedom's.
Elkcher,good post.

 

[ELKCHSR]

Well thanks Deb!!!

 

[1_pointer]

Other than maintaining and/or building new trails what has the BRC done for the environment? Have they purchased land for habitat/environmental reasons? What makes their work defending their use anymore better or different than say Ithaca's, Mine, Oak's, RMEF work on defending theirs?

Elkchsr- I can't agree with your argument that you can't handle to take the good with the bad, when you openly support any politician. If you can find one politician that you agree with you on all points good luck, and then finding one to stay consistent to that...

 

[Ithaca 37]

Here's some info on the Blue Ribbon Coalition!

""Carrying the ORV industry's gas --and venting it --is the BlueRibbon Coalition, one of the original signatories to the Wise Use Agenda, an official platform hatched by Seattle-area propagandist Ron Arnold and convicted tax-fraud felon Alan M. Gottlieb that advocates the sale and development of public land as well as the suspension of federal statutory protection for "non-adaptive species." The coalition is jointly funded by Yamaha, Honda, Polaris, Ski-doo, and Horizon, and lists among its members scores of motor-head clubs with names like the Missouri Mudders, and such firms and cartels as the Western States Petroleum Association, American Forest & Paper Association, Boise Cascade, Idaho Cattle Association, Committee for Public Access to Public Lands, Idaho Mining Association, and Northwest Mining Association. Cofounder and director Clark Collins defines Forest Service Chief Dombeck's temporary moratorium on new logging roads as a wilderness-expansion plot by the "GAGs" (green advocacy groups, which he has also referred to as "hate groups" and "nature Nazis"). And in late August he launched the Wilderness Act Reform Coalition, to gut the statute that the ORV-timber-mining axis most loves to hate.......But not all sportsmen are so easily seduced, and when you strip away the mirrors, gongs, water, and dry ice, Clark Collins becomes a little man in a Wizard of Oz suit......................................................................................The presence of ATVs on public hunting grounds will probably be one of the largest contributors to loss of hunting opportunity that we've yet experienced. It puts the animals at a disadvantage. It violates the security that wildlife once had in difficult terrain."

But the ATV riders don't care as long as they don't have to get off and walk!!!

http://pws.chartermi.net/~duluthikes/wu_tw_motors.htm

We had a short discussion about the BRC last Winter:

http://www.huntandlodge.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=31&t=000597

 

[Ithaca 37]

Here's the BRC website:

http://www.sharetrails.org/

 

[Muledeer4me]

"Mounted on my fishing scow is a six-horse, two-stroke outboard because a four-stroke, though far quieter and cleaner, would sink it. Two-stroke engines-which power most outboard boats and ORVs-are crude, filthy devices. At least a quarter of the fuel they "consume" enters the environment unburned, via the exhaust. "

If this guy is serious he wouldn't be using any motor at all ,none of that nasty two-stroke crap that he admit's is bad for the environment.What's up with that bit of double talk?


"But there's a difference between outboards and ORVs. My motor gets me to the spring hole, then I shut it off. Riding ORVs, on the other hand, has become recreation unto itself; mainly they are used to provide thrills, not transportation. What moves and inspires most ORV operators is different from what moves and inspires most other people who gravitate toward wild land. For example, my outboard-which bears no model name other than "6MSHY"-is manufactured by Yamaha, a company that also offers a line of ATVs named, it would seem, for the noise they make (Banshee and Blaster) or the predators they displace (Grizzly, Kodiak, Wolverine, Timberwolf, Big Bear, and Badger)."

That quote really crack's me up.
I am here to tell you,I own a Yamaha Kodiak ,and Im not riding it to get thrill's LOL
I know I haven't dispalced any Kodiak Bear's while riding mine,nor has Steve displaced and Big Bear's on his.
We are guilty as hell of riding down roads and trails and parking it to hike fish or hunt,and unlike the man in your link ,our intertainment has a four-stroke motor,and our boat was only powered by human's.
That is the type of Greenie speak that turn's people off.
If the man had kept to the truth and practiced what he is preaching he would have more people respecting him.
When I see stuff like that and it doesn't fit how I ride or my friends ride,it make's me question everything about these agenda driven elitist.
If they have to lie about something as simple as how people use there machine's ,how much else do they lie about.
As a baby boomer LOL I don't ride like a bat out of hell,and I dont get a thrill in displacing earth , spinning my tire's and making a bigger mud hole.
That is as dumb as saying ALL environmentalist come across as a pompass ass

we know it isnt ALL of them.

 

[Oak]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> "non-adaptive species." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>That's my favorite quote of the day! Hmm, I think maybe humans are the non-adaptive species. Manifest Destiny, right?

Oak

 

[ELKCHSR]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> That's my favorite quote of the day! Hmm, I think maybe humans are the non-adaptive species. Manifest Destiny, right? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I think there are only some humans that would fit this description, and a few are on this board, they will not see the center for any thing, only the edges and only on one side...
Tyler I answered your question, but I don't think it would matter how I answer, you will not be satisfied with any of it, only have to find fault no matter how nit picky and ignorant you want to be, I think I have made my points "VERY" clear, semantics can be played all day and still nothing will be said or gained by them. I know this will be read with distain and scorn by a few of you, but it is written with sadness that some of you think that if you pick some thing to death, it will make it all better, or give you a better understanding of what is going on, or make you feel better about yourself, but that is not the case and will only cause you to be sour and bitter in the end. I have my views on this and have plainly stated them, I have learned what I have learned by the school of hard knocks, trial and error in the real world, it hasn't been formulated in some class room some where, only fortified, or on the pages of some internet site that I have found and want some one to totally agree with. I hope some day some of you will get it also, and then you will be able to see the bigger picture instead of trying to learn every thing from a tiny little speck that you try and over analyze and justify in your own mind...

 

[Ithaca 37]

Earth calling Elkchser!! Russ, I hope you don't think you're the only one here who's graduated from the School of Hard Knocks!!

I admit having it better than some when I was a kid. My school had two rooms in it for all eight grades, having recently been enlarged because my class had six kids in it and the one room school was getting crowded.

And Vermont was one tough place to try to make a living back then! I happen to have a PhD. from the School of Hard Knocks. By the time I was 12 I was running a saw on a pretty big logging operation (probably before you were born) with horses--no Cat yet, with guys who had been logging since the Depression. Ever see those first chain saws? It was easier running a crosscut!

And hunting was the way we got most of our meat. It wasn't really a sport. More of a neccessity.

And when we baked bread in the woodstove it wasn't because we were a bunch of yuppies having fun!

I think you're getting lot's of perspectives here in SI from posters who aren't wet behind the ears anymore.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 04-03-2003 18:19: Message edited by: Ithaca 37 ]</font>

 

[ELKCHSR]

Yep!!
And I didn't realize you were on that list.!!!

 

[1_pointer]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> and ignorant you want to be <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
ignorant:having little knowledge, education, or experience; uneducated. -Websters. Now who is the one why lambasts Buzz for being abrasive and calling names? It's true I am inexperienced in many things, but why not learn from the experience of those that came before you?

I have no personal qualm with you, but you are guilty of what you condemn others for. You say that we can't take some of these groups for face value, because of underlying ideals behind their actions or lack of action.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> What I support is some of the ideas that come out that are actually good, the problem is with most is they want to take it to the extreme, but won't live what they in reality preach. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

However, you most always give unilateral support for resource extraction. Do you agree with it all? Or how about GW or Rush, do you stand for everything they do? See, most all are quilty of doublespeak on some level. Calling nitpicking if you want, just know that it is not personal. I've never met you so I can't or won't go there.

If you believe that everything must be learned from first hand experience you will be living a shallow life. Have you never learned anything from a book, TV show (Discovey or learning channel), newspaper, or website? What about the class you attended on fires recently?

 

[ELKCHSR]

LOL!!!
One can't follow exactly the path of any one, I do have a lot of the same values of the individuals that you mentioned, there is a few things on occasion that I don't agree with, but that is to be expected, what you keep taking to heart and you will finally get to see what I am talking about, when you get out in the field and see for yourself what you have learned. There is very good places for school, but school should only fill in gaps on your knowledge and not consume all of what you know. It should be used to fill in the gaps that may take years to learn in the field, but not to make up the whole answer, that is not where the answers are all found, that is why there are so many people that are actually out learning so they can write some of those findings in books and what not. To get a good in-depth knowledge of your subjects takes a lot of fieldwork and hands on, some thing you will never get out of a book anywhere. Don't take this to the extreme and jump on the thought that you think I just said that all or any school is bad. That is only jumping to untrue conclusions of what I have been saying since I have gotten on this board. It seems that with a few on this board that no matter what I say, their prejudices of me being a conservative cloud every thing that I say and they jump to the worst conclusions that can possibly come to their minds, when this is not nor has ever been the way I come off, unless you read way to much into it. Here is a very good way to look at the way I think on most of these subjects, imagine if you will a fence, a right side and a left side, with big fields on both sides. Your opinion of me, is sitting at the far end of the field on the right, when in reality I am only just to the right side of the fence, you and some others are just to the left of the fence. No matter what you or others may think, I have stated time and time again, my stance on most every subject, it is some of the others on this board that have tried to put me in some far right radical stance, and put words in my mouth, read very carefully what I write and you will see this is true. Don't read just what you want, read what the content is, you will see...

 

[1_pointer]

Good analogy! Maybe we can hash out some of these differences next month.

I'll be in Deer Lodge from May 11-24, but I'm not sure how much 'free' time I'll have because it is a field course, the best of both worlds.

 

[Ithaca 37]

1 pointer, I sure hope Elkchser can get your head straightened out after all that book learnin' you're gettin'!

 

[1_pointer]

FWIW, my dad says it takes a 2X4 to do that!

 

[ELKCHSR]

LMAO!!!Your in luck, I have one of those!!!