Treaty rules continue in to pop up in wildlife news

[VikingsGuy]

Read Calvin Martin's "Keepers of the Game." Extensive historical records seems to confirm otherwise. Indians were the exact opposite of conservationists. HBC records are full of complaints of their excesses and wastefulness in harvesting fish and game. And why were the Company factors complaining? Because it would be the responsibility of the Company to look after their local employees and keep them from starving once they'd exterminated the resources. Keepers of the natural resource is a myth that no one wants to recognize. The guy took a lot of heat after his book was published but as far as I know, outside of the usual hipshot racist accusations when someone says anything "negative" about Native culture, no one successfully disputed his findings.

Color me skeptical of the “fair” stories from the worst of the British imperial concepts - privatization of colonization.

 

[VikingsGuy]

Color me skeptical of the “fair” stories from the worst of the British imperial concepts - privatization of colonization.

Or should I have said “colour” me skeptical

 

[VikingsGuy]

Read Calvin Martin's "Keepers of the Game." Extensive historical records seems to confirm otherwise. Indians were the exact opposite of conservationists. HBC records are full of complaints of their excesses and wastefulness in harvesting fish and game. And why were the Company factors complaining? Because it would be the responsibility of the Company to look after their local employees and keep them from starving once they'd exterminated the resources. Keepers of the natural resource is a myth that no one wants to recognize. The guy took a lot of heat after his book was published but as far as I know, outside of the usual hipshot racist accusations when someone says anything "negative" about Native culture, no one successfully disputed his findings.

Seems like you cherry pick . . .

 

[Rhcuam]

“It's always been a thorn in our side," Pemberton said. "They [the federal government] stole it from us."

Lol. Conquered old son, Conquered is the word you’re looking for not stolen. I think sovereign nations should start funding themselves. We’ll see how that goes.

When they net out the lake again, just leave it barren.

 

[VikingsGuy]

“It's always been a thorn in our side," Pemberton said. "They [the federal government] stole it from us."

Lol. Conquered old son, Conquered is the word you’re looking for not stolen. I think sovereign nations should start funding themselves. We’ll see how that goes.

The quote clearly refers to post-treaty/post-“conquering” stealing/misbehavior by feds.

And the US agreed to provide for most of these tribes - but since when did a man’s word mean anything - since when did folks believe in contract rights, property rights, treaties.

Two simple solutions for you - (1) get enough votes in US Congress to erase the treaty/sovereignty framework; or (2) give your land/home to the nearest tribe member and move back to the European country your ancestors fled/got kicked out of. I am fine with either of your choices.

 

[Rhcuam]

The quote clearly refers to post-treaty/post-“conquering” stealing/misbehavior by feds.

And the US agreed to provide for most of these tribes - but since when did a man’s word mean anything - since when did folks believe in contract rights, property rights, treaties.

Two a simple solutions for you - (1) get enough votes in US Congress to erase the treaty/sovereignty framework; or (2) give your land/home to the nearest tribe member and move back to the European country your ancestors fled/got kicked out of. I am fine with either of your choices.

So when are you heading back partner?

 

[VikingsGuy]

So when are you heading back partner?

I choose to stay and honor our treaty obligations without whining.

 

[Rhcuam]

I choose to stay and honor our treaty obligations without whining.

So when we turning over the eastern part of Oklahoma?
I just calling a spade a spade they want to have all the luxuries of living in the United States on the federal dime but none of the responsibilities.

 

[Rhcuam]

Did they offer the tribes they stole that land from treaties?
Your silliness in thinking that Native Americans are some great conservation group. Do you see a lot of game on reservations?
But he’ll I’m fine turning it over to them. Just when they destroy the fishery again, they can restock it on their dime. Which technically is still federal money so it’s still our dime.
I’m sure you get what I mean though

 

[VikingsGuy]

So when we turning over the eastern part of Oklahoma?
I just calling a spade a spade they want to have all the luxuries of living in the United States on the federal dime but none of the responsibilities.

They pay their fed taxes just like you and I.

As for OK, that is whatever the treaties and congress say it is. That funny rule of law thing. Laws govern even if the “white guy” doesn’t win every time.

 

[VikingsGuy]

Did they offer the tribes they stole that land from treaties?
Your silliness in thinking that Native Americans are some great conservation group. Do you see a lot of game on reservations?
But he’ll I’m fine turning it over to them. Just when they destroy the fishery again, they can restock it on their dime. Which technically is still federal money so it’s still our dime.
I’m sure you get what I mean though

I don’t think any governing body (majority white or tribal) is great at conservation or anything else - I am just saying they have the same rights to make a mess of the world as the rest of us do. I do not discriminate basis race - lots of people are on the dole and human organizations/governments screw up at least as much as they fix. Has nothing to do with European vs Native American.

 

[Rhcuam]

I don’t think any governing body (majority white or tribal) is great at conservation or anything else - I am just saying they have the same rights to make a mess of the world as the rest of us do. I do not discriminate basis race - lots of people are on the dole and human organizations/governments screw up at least as much as they fix. Has nothing to do with European vs Native American.

So do you see a lot of game on Indian reservations?

“Re: “Over fishing” - Given any sense of history I have a hard time biting on narratives were “whites” are the conservationists and Indians are the spoilers of nature.”

 

[Nicoli7153]

“It's always been a thorn in our side," Pemberton said. "They [the federal government] stole it from us."

Lol. Conquered old son, Conquered is the word you’re looking for not stolen. I think sovereign nations should start funding themselves. We’ll see how that goes.

When they net out the lake again, just leave it barren.

If memory serves me right the tribal netting of that lake was a big factor in the crash of the walleye fishery. They were allowed to sell their catch commercially.

 

[VikingsGuy]

So do you see a lot of game on Indian reservations?

Moose, deer, bear up here. More than I see in our suburbs/cities. But we do seem to have a ridiculously large number of geese and turkeys - go figure.

 

[OntarioHunter]

Seems like you cherry pick . . .

View attachment 269620

Read the book. Martin acknowledges the excesses but blames the white man for making them do it. Because we introduced diseases, the Natives somehow figured it was the wild animals' fault and decided to get rid of the wildlife. No kidding. And of course providing them with trade goods in exchange for beavers thrust market forces on those poor naive Natives that they were totally incapable of dealing with. Consequently they exterminated the beaver and other wildlife species. Gee, how did Lake Superior copper make it to the American Southwest and Alaska BEFORE white man's arrival. Just fell out of the sky? No. It was traded. Visit Pipestone Park and learn how that quarry's pipe making material was traded cross-continent without being introduced to commerce by white men. To conclude that prior to the arrival of white man Native Americans knew nothing about commerce is to ignore the historical record ... and anthropological evidence.

 

[Rhcuam]

If memory serves me right the tribal netting of that lake was a big factor in the crash of the walleye fishery. They were allowed to sell their catch commercially.

It is there a treaty right to destroy the walleye fishery. Again. And then they will complain that they destroyed the walleye fishery. Great pillars of conservation. Lol

 

[VikingsGuy]

If memory serves me right the tribal netting of that lake was a big factor in the crash of the walleye fishery. They were allowed to sell their catch commercially.

Please point out the section of the treaty that then allows the fisherman of MN to take over the territory in that event.

Seems like Bernie Sanders has more respect for property rights than the average HT “sportsman” these days.

 

[idahohuntr]

Once the natives started commercial harvesting fish to sell for a profit, that's where I have a problem with it. It's no longer about preserving a way of life for most, it's about selling the fish in a commercial manner.

Tribes often harvested fish and game as a means of barter/trade/profit. It most certainly was not based just on minimal personal use/consumption.

 

[Nicoli7153]

Please point out the section of the treaty that then allows the fisherman of MN to take over the territory in that event.

Seems like Bernie Sanders has more respect for property rights than the average HT “sportsman” these days.

Not advocating that position at all, US should honor the treaty.... no grey area there. However the State of Minnesota may be reluctant to fund any future restocking efforts (if needed) when their citizens do not have access to it. Perhaps the Feds should be the funding source if that need arises.

 

[SAJ-99]

If memory serves me right the tribal netting of that lake was a big factor in the crash of the walleye fishery. They were allowed to sell their catch commercially.

Commercial fishing crashed a lot of fish populations across the upper midwest (See link). Assigning blame to "tribes" is deflecting the conversation (not accusing you, just in general). The question is do they have a right assigned by treaty?

@VikingsGuy, you sure can pick the topics. Nothing like debating 250yrs of history in a thread about walleye.

The History of Lake Erie Walleye Fishing | Walleye Sport

Walleye have always been an important food source for Ohio natives. In early history they were found in the majority of Ohio rivers as well as Lake Erie. They’re easy to catch, simple to prepare and delicious. Today the population has soared to record levels. People from all over are flocking to...

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