Transferring public lands and shrinking the NPS for the good of hunting.

[BrentD]

I think that question swings both ways… is there a biological reason they need to be hunted?

I don’t know the area, or the population dynamics at all - are there large scale die-offs because the herd has exceeded the carrying capacity of the habitat? If so I think the “hunting is conservation” argument holds merit.

But then again, I definitely see your side of there’s already plenty of human caused disturbance in the area, why not 1 sheep tag.

Why?

 

[Straight Arrow]

As both a hunter and wildlife advocate, my priorities are clear to me. If sound scientific wildlife management requires culling of populations, even in national parks such as overgrazing by bison or other species, then hunting should at be considered. Fortunately, migrations out of the Park boundaries allows that as a practical management tool.

As a citizen of the state, I also realize the critical importance of tourism to the economy and know that the abundance of observable wildlife in the Park is a large attraction to the vast numbers of tourists who visit the state and contribute to the economy most significantly.

 

[Potsie]

Why?

Why not?

Honestly, I see both sides of the argument, is all. Is there a "hunting is conservation" need to have a tag - not that I'm seeing at face value (but again, I don't know the area or the specifics at all.) But would having 1 ram tag add a significant impact to the herd - probably not.

Sometimes, when the wife and I are arguing over stuff one of us will just say "scale of 1 - 10, where are you on this?" Most of the time, one of us puts much more importance on the issue than the other. Usually it's just my obstinate @ss being argumentative and going to far...

In all transparency, I'm like a '2' on this one.

 

[BuzzH]

I think that question swings both ways… is there a biological reason they need to be hunted?

I don’t know the area, or the population dynamics at all - are there large scale die-offs because the herd has exceeded the carrying capacity of the habitat? If so I think the “hunting is conservation” argument holds merit.

But then again, I definitely see your side of there’s already plenty of human caused disturbance in the area, why not 1 sheep tag.

To expand on this, it doesn't sound like there's so many desert sheep in the area that the population is reducing habitat quality, suffering a die off, etc.

If the population was actually to that point, the solution would not be to kill rams to control the population, but to kill ewes.

I can point to every single native mountain goat herd in Montana where "hunting is conservation" has nearly wiped out goats. Bob Marshall, Rattlesnake, Sapphires, Bitterroots, Missions, etc.

Not one of those herds has benefitted from hunting, in fact just the opposite.

 

[Beignet]

Sometimes, when the wife and I are arguing over stuff one of us will just say "scale of 1 - 10, where are you on this?" Most of the time, one of us puts much more importance on the issue than the other. Usually it's just my obstinate @ss being argumentative and going to far...

In all transparency, I'm like a '2' on this one.

I like this severity ranking method.

 

[BuzzH]

Why not?

Honestly, I see both sides of the argument, is all. Is there a "hunting is conservation" need to have a tag - not that I'm seeing at face value (but again, I don't know the area or the specifics at all.) But would having 1 ram tag add a significant impact to the herd - probably not.

Sometimes, when the wife and I are arguing over stuff one of us will just say "scale of 1 - 10, where are you on this?" Most of the time, one of us puts much more importance on the issue than the other. Usually it's just my obstinate @ss being argumentative and going to far...

In all transparency, I'm like a '2' on this one.

Why not a ewe tag instead?

 

[Potsie]

Why not a ewe tag instead?

fair point. If the herd is over population objective and needs a "hunting is conservation" intervention, it should be a ewe tag.

But I've also never had a ram tag... so if there's one more in the world, hypothetically my odds go up.

 

[Wildabeest]

Sometimes, when the wife and I are arguing over stuff one of us will just say "scale of 1 - 10, where are you on this?" Most of the time, one of us puts much more importance on the issue than the other. Usually it's just my obstinate @ss being argumentative and going to far...

I like that idea. I had a marriage counselor once tell me “just because you’re right doesn’t mean you’re right.” Had to ponder it for awhile, but once I understood what she was getting at, the phrase always stuck with me.

 

[BrentD]

Why not?

Honestly, I see both sides of the argument, is all. Is there a "hunting is conservation" need to have a tag - not that I'm seeing at face value (but again, I don't know the area or the specifics at all.) But would having 1 ram tag add a significant impact to the herd - probably not.

Sometimes, when the wife and I are arguing over stuff one of us will just say "scale of 1 - 10, where are you on this?" Most of the time, one of us puts much more importance on the issue than the other. Usually it's just my obstinate @ss being argumentative and going to far...

In all transparency, I'm like a '2' on this one.

Because i'd like to see a really big. Really old really Majestic Ram in the park. And not in some $*)Q!#@$ billionaires kill picture on show media. That's why

 

[BrentD]

fair point. If the herd is over population objective and needs a "hunting is conservation" intervention, it should be a ewe tag.

But I've also never had a ram tag... so if there's one more in the world, hypothetically my odds go up.

Unless you are a bazillionaire your odds would not go up one iota.

 

[BuzzH]

fair point. If the herd is over population objective and needs a "hunting is conservation" intervention, it should be a ewe tag.

But I've also never had a ram tag... so if there's one more in the world, hypothetically my odds go up.

Maybe it's just an age thing with me and being a first hand participant in the alleged hunting is conservation mantra for a vast majority of my life.

As an example, I don't, and never did, feel like much of a conservation minded hunter when I've shot any wild sheep rams. Did it harm the herd potential? Probably not. Was it in any way really hunting is conservation? It gets muddy...yes, definitely paid for applications, points, licenses and tags for decades. How much went directly to sheep management??? I think the conservation argument gets thin, it's there, but skinny.

On the other hand, it's crystal clear to me when each year I take 2-3 cow elk from herds of 200-700, that are over objective by thousands of animals in those units, that's definitely hunting is conservation.

 

[Potsie]

Unless you are a bazillionaire your odds would not go up one iota.

Maybe I am. Maybe I'm just a guy on the internet that's burned out on "outrage."

Have a great weekend!

 

[cgasner1]

Maybe it's just an age thing with me and being a first hand participant in the alleged hunting is conservation mantra for a vast majority of my life.

As an example, I don't, and never did, feel like much of a conservation minded hunter when I've shot any wild sheep rams. Did it harm the herd potential? Probably not. Was it in any way really hunting is conservation? It gets muddy...yes, definitely paid for applications, points, licenses and tags for decades. How much went directly to sheep management??? I think the conservation argument gets thin, it's there, but skinny.

On the other hand, it's crystal clear to me when each year I take 2-3 cow elk from herds of 200-700, that are over objective by thousands of animals in those units, that's definitely hunting is conservation.

Find this thread quite interesting. I’d also add that by creating a tag such as @MTGomer is suggesting helps bring more attention to the species. Which in turn causes people to give more money to help it which helps with the conservation aspect of it. Or at least that’s the logic that was pushed on me when I asked why our big 3 isn’t OIL

 

[BrentD]

Find this thread quite interesting. I’d also add that by creating a tag such as @MTGomer is suggesting helps bring more attention to the species. Which in turn causes people to give more money to help it which helps with the conservation aspect of it. Or at least that’s the logic that was pushed on me when I asked why our big 3 isn’t OIL

I would argue with brings more bad attention to hunters even if it's not entirely deserved. Massively unproductive when someone pokes the biggest most dramatic animal in the park. Legal or not.

 

[BuzzH]

Find this thread quite interesting. I’d also add that by creating a tag such as @MTGomer is suggesting helps bring more attention to the species. Which in turn causes people to give more money to help it which helps with the conservation aspect of it. Or at least that’s the logic that was pushed on me when I asked why our big 3 isn’t OIL

Yeah, I've heard that one too.

 

[MTGomer]

Unless you are a bazillionaire your odds would not go up one iota.

144/26,000* =0.00554
145/26000 =0.00558

.00558-.00554=0.00004
.004%=0.00004 = +\- 1 iota


*The above are round number guesstimates of AZ sheep licenses divided by applicants and may not be reliable.

 

[rjthehunter]

I’ve had some memorable evenings in Yellowstone, glassing for critters well off the beaten path. Didn’t need a rifle in hand to enjoy myself.

I enjoy watching animals as well when its not hunting season. During hunting season, I'm usually carrying a gun or bow. You can choose to watch critters whenever you'd like to. You can't hunt whenever you'd like. There's seasons and tags.

 

[Straight Arrow]

There's seasons and tags.

Just not in Yellowstone National Park.

 

[rjthehunter]

Just not in Yellowstone National Park.

This is true