Tough Winter

[Big Fin]

Very depressing. I talked to Warden Todd Anderson on Friday and he described the carnage he and other wardens had to dispose of. He painted a very gloomy picture for the animals and their chances for survival this winter.

Wish there was something that could be done. Don't know what that would be.

 

[Breaks Runner]

I saw it in the winter of 77' , 78'....90% of the antelope in most of Eastern Montana died that winter.

25* below here this morning. There is 35" of concentrated snow on the level here on the Milk River.

 

[drahthaar]

Sickening.

 

[Nemont]

I saw it in the winter of 77' , 78'....90% of the antelope in most of Eastern Montana died that winter.

25* below here this morning. There is 35" of concentrated snow on the level here on the Milk River.

BR,

We were talking about that winter at coffee this morning. Hard to believe we have more snow this year than during that winter. Nearly 80 inches for far for the season.

I keep telling my wife that if I don't come home from work I have left for Cabo and will return when it thaws out.

Hope they are wrong about the -35 temp for tonight.

Nemont

 

[Breaks Runner]

Laffin! I was thinking about New Zealand, myself...

Last week I was out hunting coyotes on Willow Creek on the snowshoes. I had a pair spotted out about 1.5 miles in a place where I could stay out of sight for a stalk. The snow had a crust on top maybe 3", under that was heavy "sugar snow" that went right through the webbing and up to my thighs. It was the toughest 1/2 of distance I've ever covered....that was before this last foot of snow.

 

[mtmiller]

Forcasted temps keep getting colder over the last 48 hours. Sitting at a balmy -29 right now. From the office window I can see 30 or 40 lopes. Pretty sure there are a couple stiff ones over there as well, but I don't intend to walk over there. Shooting for -38 tonight. I hope my rental vehicle has a core heater.

 

[JCS]

Heat wave here. -15 with 20 mph winds.

We only have around 25 inches of snow on the ground. But 50+ miles north is a different story. You guys are really having a winter.

 

[belly-deep]

This is exactly why they SHOULDN'T have closed the elk season down the last week of season like many on here were calling for (conviently, after they had killed their bulls).

You can't stockpile game herds.

 

[mdunc8]

. The snow had a crust on top maybe 3", under that was heavy "sugar snow" that went right through the webbing and up to my thighs.

I had to trudge through the same stuff this weekend while out hiking in the mountains. Unless I was on top of a wind blown ridge, I was waist deep in snow even with snowshoes. I felt bad watching a moose calf trying to make its way around.

 

[drahthaar]

I saw it in the winter of 77' , 78'....90% of the antelope in most of Eastern Montana died that winter.

25* below here this morning. There is 35" of concentrated snow on the level here on the Milk River.

What did they do for hunting them the next year? Drastic measures like no tags, no season?

 

[shoots-straight]

Very depressing. I talked to Warden Todd Anderson on Friday and he described the carnage he and other wardens had to dispose of. He painted a very gloomy picture for the animals and their chances for survival this winter.

Wish there was something that could be done. Don't know what that would be.

Pray!

 

[mdunc8]

This is exactly why they SHOULDN'T have closed the elk season down the last week of season like many on here were calling for (conviently, after they had killed their bulls).

You can't stockpile game herds.

Sure you can. FWP does it every year by limiting tags or harvest for EVERY species except the ones they're trying reduce. No, you can't control the unexpected, but you can manage a population to lessen the effects of extreme events. Not to get too technical, but look at an isometric growth curve, which is how population growth works for most species. Just imagine how screwed we'd be if SW Montana was having the winter that the NE is experiencing or if FWP didn't limit antelope tags last year.

 

[Duck-Slayer]

I talked with my grandpa and he said there is snow freak'n everywhere and don't plan on having a very good pheasant season this fall, there is snow drifting in all the wind breaks, hardly anywhere for the birds/other game too get away from the cold, that sucks I was planning on going back too the ranch this fall and shoot some pheasants and other game...
Matt

 

[belly-deep]

Sure you can. FWP does it every year by limiting tags or harvest for EVERY species except the ones they're trying reduce. No, you can't control the unexpected, but you can manage a population to lessen the effects of extreme events. Not to get too technical, but look at an isometric growth curve, which is how population growth works for most species. Just imagine how screwed we'd be if SW Montana was having the winter that the NE is experiencing or if FWP didn't limit antelope tags last year.

Would we?

Say the antelope have a 90% mortality rate this winter. That means that 9 of every 10 antelope, for whatever reason, weren't fit/lucky enough to survive. That also means that had the FWP given out extra tags, 9 out of 10 animals killed by hunters would have been dead regardless by the time winter was over.

I don't know about you, but I'd rather have them in hunters' freezers than rotting along railroad tracks come springtime.

My main point is, we can't predict what will happen to our animal herds year to year, and so trying to save them up is crazy. I'm not advocating for lifting the limits we have in place now by any means because a sustained high hunter harvest will hurt game populations, but we have to remember these populations are impacted more by mother nature than man in a given year.

 

[Ben Lamb]

Would we?

Say the antelope have a 90% mortality rate this winter. That means that 9 of every 10 antelope, for whatever reason, weren't fit/lucky enough to survive. That also means that had the FWP given out extra tags, 9 out of 10 animals killed by hunters would have been dead regardless by the time winter was over.

I don't know about you, but I'd rather have them in hunters' freezers than rotting along railroad tracks come springtime.

My main point is, we can't predict what will happen to our animal herds year to year, and so trying to save them up is crazy. I'm not advocating for lifting the limits we have in place now by any means because a sustained high hunter harvest will hurt game populations, but we have to remember these populations are impacted more by mother nature than man in a given year.

We do predict what will happen from year to year through population modeling, past herd counts, social tolerance and carrying capacity, etc. An event like this winter is an anomaly, and you don't manage for the anomaly. How anyone would have predicted this in February of 2010, when they were setting quotas, etc, is beyond me.

Add on top of that - more animals on the ground = more animals surviving the winter, any winter.

I get what your saying, I just disagree with the thought process that gets you there.

 

[mdunc8]

and you don't manage for the anomaly.

I think that depends on what species your looking at. Antelope or mule deer you're probably right. There's enough of them out there over a large enough area that they have the ability to bounce back relatively quickly. I think elk around Yellowstone, or other areas with extremely low numbers and recruitment, are a different story. Can you imagine what the upper Gallatin herd would have looked like after this year if it was an open season on cows?

 

[mdunc8]

we have to remember these populations are impacted more by mother nature than man in a given year.

I don't know the numbers (natural mortality, hunter harvest, etc.), but I find that very hard to believe.

 

[Ben Lamb]

I think that depends on what species your looking at. Antelope or mule deer you're probably right. There's enough of them out there over a large enough area that they have the ability to bounce back relatively quickly. I think elk around Yellowstone, or other areas with extremely low numbers and recruitment, are a different story. Can you imagine what the upper Gallatin herd would have looked like after this year if it was an open season on cows?

What's going on with the Gallatin/Madison herd isn't an anomaly, it's a well documented trend due to wolf impact.

 

[mdunc8]

I'm talking about harvest this year as an anomaly (not the current population).

 

[belly-deep]

We do predict what will happen from year to year through population modeling, past herd counts, social tolerance and carrying capacity, etc. An event like this winter is an anomaly, and you don't manage for the anomaly. How anyone would have predicted this in February of 2010, when they were setting quotas, etc, is beyond me.

I never said the FWP had incorrect quotas, infact I said that I'm not in favor of lifting any limits the FWP has in place right now.

My main point is that we shouldn't jump the gun and advocate closing season down early when a big snowfall hits because it may just winter kill most of the animals hunters would have taken. Also, we shouldn't try and build populations up too high above what the winter range could support during a tough year because they just might come crashing down.

Add on top of that - more animals on the ground = more animals surviving the winter, any winter.

That is not exactly true, infact the opposite is true in certain situations. Mother nature won't let a herd grow beyond what its winter range will support for very long. If you get a couple of easy winters, game populations might get abnormally high, but nature will correct itself in short order.

If you let a population get really big and a tough winter comes along, then you're in trouble. The animals will eat all of the food up by mid-winter and really die off. Enough food to winter 1000 animals will winter 1000 animals and while there may be deaths, it won't be from lack of forage. But enough food to winter 1000 will not winter 2000 animals and the whole 2000 of them will be starving at some point before spring comes.

I'm not saying that this is occuring right now to those antelope, but my point is that just because an animal is running around at the end of hunting season, it doesn't mean that it will be doing the same thing when the season opens the next fall.