Elkhunter24
Well-known member
Elkhunter11- Good luck to you let us know how you make out!
To Clean or Not to Clean
- Thread starter ElkHunter11
- Start date
old man
Active member
I can not believe you guys. I have never heard of not cleaning a modern riffle after every few shots. if it is not shooting good with the first couple of rounds then change ammo till you find the right one .if that don't work change the rifle. if that don't work change the shooter.with a dirty barrel there is no telling where the next shot will go. if you always shoot well with a clean barrel you will never have to waste all the ammo trying to get it shooting well again. plus with all that fouling it will be a hell of a lot harder to clean properly.
Last edited:
Mason326
Member
Cleaning regimes are a can of worms. Evidence based, there are two very valid schools of thought here that both work:
1) Establish your zero based on a cold-bore fouling shot/first few shots. Keep your rifle clean of copper fouling and clean after x-number of rounds. This is like old man mentions and a more old school way of doing things and it works very well. Down sides? Fire-cracking within the barrel steel, especially with hot cartridges like 300 win mag, has been known to accelerate when you remove that cozy protective layer of copper from the bore. This effect is exponential in nature but is likely more of an issue for heavy shooters (I put around 500-1000 rounds through all my guns each year, I typically don't use this method for plain steel barreled guns). Second downside is that you are much more likely to damage the chamber or crown due to excessive cleaning. Make sure you know good cleaning methods if you go this way (or if you every clean your gun!). Use a high end cleaning rod (I use carbon fiber with good rotating handle, one piece) and a bore guide. Never exit the muzzle with a brush, it will abrade the crown. I may use this method for my one purely hunting rifle this year.
2) Use copper equilibrium method to establish zero. Shoot your gun until copper fouling starts to stabilize and increase very slowly. Establish zero from there and do not clean copper until groups degrade. Copper fouling will increase in the barrel in a logarithmic fashion and at some point stabilize and very slowly increase. Only clean when your groups begin to degrade. I like this method for precision guns and barrels with magic linings (chrome, nitride, etc) as it both reduces my cleanings (yay) and I keep a consistent zero for much longer. Bare steel barrels also tend to last longer this way. Downsides? You have to figure out when your zero stabilizes by shooting a lot (reduces barrel life that way) and to do that you must keep meticulous notes. It is also harder to tell which ammunition will group well until fouling has leveled off. More of an issue for those who use only factory ammunition.
Many factors can affect zero and it is hard to diagnose some of the complaints aired here, they are likely not all attributable to copper fouling. Action screw tension, bedding, scope rings (are they lapped? on a 1-piece base? is the base bedded?), stock shrinkage or expansion (esp. with wood), et cetera.
All that being said, I prefer method 2, but I don't think it makes a difference in who is able to make first-shot hits and hold zero as long as you keep good notes, stick with your procedure, and clean in a proper manner. I would not touch the rifle and re-check zero when you get up here with 3-5 rounds and not touch it after that. Less is often more.
1) Establish your zero based on a cold-bore fouling shot/first few shots. Keep your rifle clean of copper fouling and clean after x-number of rounds. This is like old man mentions and a more old school way of doing things and it works very well. Down sides? Fire-cracking within the barrel steel, especially with hot cartridges like 300 win mag, has been known to accelerate when you remove that cozy protective layer of copper from the bore. This effect is exponential in nature but is likely more of an issue for heavy shooters (I put around 500-1000 rounds through all my guns each year, I typically don't use this method for plain steel barreled guns). Second downside is that you are much more likely to damage the chamber or crown due to excessive cleaning. Make sure you know good cleaning methods if you go this way (or if you every clean your gun!). Use a high end cleaning rod (I use carbon fiber with good rotating handle, one piece) and a bore guide. Never exit the muzzle with a brush, it will abrade the crown. I may use this method for my one purely hunting rifle this year.
2) Use copper equilibrium method to establish zero. Shoot your gun until copper fouling starts to stabilize and increase very slowly. Establish zero from there and do not clean copper until groups degrade. Copper fouling will increase in the barrel in a logarithmic fashion and at some point stabilize and very slowly increase. Only clean when your groups begin to degrade. I like this method for precision guns and barrels with magic linings (chrome, nitride, etc) as it both reduces my cleanings (yay) and I keep a consistent zero for much longer. Bare steel barrels also tend to last longer this way. Downsides? You have to figure out when your zero stabilizes by shooting a lot (reduces barrel life that way) and to do that you must keep meticulous notes. It is also harder to tell which ammunition will group well until fouling has leveled off. More of an issue for those who use only factory ammunition.
Many factors can affect zero and it is hard to diagnose some of the complaints aired here, they are likely not all attributable to copper fouling. Action screw tension, bedding, scope rings (are they lapped? on a 1-piece base? is the base bedded?), stock shrinkage or expansion (esp. with wood), et cetera.
All that being said, I prefer method 2, but I don't think it makes a difference in who is able to make first-shot hits and hold zero as long as you keep good notes, stick with your procedure, and clean in a proper manner. I would not touch the rifle and re-check zero when you get up here with 3-5 rounds and not touch it after that. Less is often more.
pablodiablo
Member
- Joined
- May 9, 2016
- Messages
- 96
Does the elevation/altitude screw with sites/zeros? What normally happens?
Muley_Stalker
Well-known member
I couldn't sleep at night if my gun was dirty. I remember one time I was busy and forgot to clean the gun. My eyes popped open at 2am and I remembered my gun was dirty. I got up and cleaned it and then slept like a baby.
Just me. We're all free to do it your own way. To make my way work I sight in with a clean bore.
Just me. We're all free to do it your own way. To make my way work I sight in with a clean bore.
ElkHunter11
New member
I think it does play a factor when going from 500 feet up to 9,000-10,000 feet. Based on the ballistic calculator I've been using, it looks like the POI will change a little, but not drastically. I expect after 2-4 shots once I get to Colorado will determine whether or not anything changed. For instance, the calculator states where I live I need to make 18 clicks up at 400 yards. For Colorado at the elevation I'll be at, it states I need to make 17 clicks up at 400 yards. As you can see, the difference isn't drastic, but that's what shooting up there will determine if the calculator is accurate.
Mason326
Member
It can mess with your zero. Typically it is the travel (bumps, drops, et cetera) that will mess with your sights mechanically not the elevation.
Effects on zero depend on the bullet, powder, and cartridge. Higher elevation typically means different temperatures than a zero at a different elevation at the same time of year. Higher elevations than where you zero will typically have thinner air than where you zeroed. The temperature of the cartridge (not necessarily the air as they can be different!) makes for different powder burn rates and changes muzzle velocity. Thinner air causes less friction as the bullet moves through the air. Hotter cartridge temp than at zero = higher muzzle velocities and colder temperatures than at zero = lower muzzle velocities. The velocity change with temperature depending on the powder used. Thinner air means less friction as the bullet travels through the air and therefore more retained velocity = flatter trajectory.
Muley_Stalker
Well-known member
Which is why I sight in at my hunting altitude. About 10,500ft.
ElkHunter11
New member
Wish I could be as fortunate, but living at 500 feet limits that opportunity. Luckily I get up there 2 days before season starts so I'll be able to re-check my zero and make sure everything is good to go before opening morning.
Muley_Stalker
Well-known member
Yes, we can't all do it. You sound like you have a good plan.
