Washington Hunter
Well-known member
BHR, do you think salmon in the rivers of Idaho could have the potential to create more jobs than the dams?
The truth about the dams
- Thread starter Ithaca 37
- Start date
LMAO!!! Paul...
I don't beleive Mutz will fully understand that, it goes outside of the box (higher or deeper understanding of subject) when explaining the whole picture..
The governement has dipped their fingers into subsidizing almost every single aspect of life as we know it today, even more so than the obvious.
It would hurt all because of the web that has been woven if any subsidies were cut.
But I am thinking it may be time to start that very process inside of the governement and get all of us off the tit so to speak...
I don't beleive Mutz will fully understand that, it goes outside of the box (higher or deeper understanding of subject) when explaining the whole picture..
The governement has dipped their fingers into subsidizing almost every single aspect of life as we know it today, even more so than the obvious.
It would hurt all because of the web that has been woven if any subsidies were cut.
But I am thinking it may be time to start that very process inside of the governement and get all of us off the tit so to speak...
BigHornRam
Well-known member
W. H.,
Do you?
Do you?
Washington Hunter
Well-known member
Yes of course I do. But I wanted to know what you thought, since you seem to have remembered your lessons from Econ 101 much better than I do.
BigHornRam
Well-known member
W. H.,
Figure out how to replace the energy production from the dams at a reasonable price, and the dams will go. Otherwise, no I don't think the salmon would create more jobs.
Figure out how to replace the energy production from the dams at a reasonable price, and the dams will go. Otherwise, no I don't think the salmon would create more jobs.
Washington Hunter
Well-known member
I would say instead of replacing the little bit of energy that is lost by breaching the dams, let's reduce our need for that energy by the same amount. I think it would be easier to do and much more economical.
BigHornRam
Well-known member
From what I understand the "little bit" of energy is enough to run the city of Seattle. Now if you can get the Volcano Gods to cooperate, you might have found a way to save that much and more electricity.
My wife's uncle works at a coal generation plant in Colorado. I asked him if there was a way to increase production. He said they could update, repair, and get more running. This would double the production at the facility he works at. He has spoken to people from around many other facilities that say the same thing. If they were more efficient, the cost would even decrease (less pollution, less coal and more production.) The way he put it, they would run the place into the dirt before doing proper maintenance.
As for your attempt at teaching econ. Please explain how a lumber subsidy turns into a 100,000 dollar home and increased taxes in the bottom line again. (Remember, in the trickle down theory there can not be any savings or the money is lost in the trickle!) You give a subsidy to someone who will spend the money in the open market today and you have 100% increase to the GNP. Subsidize lumber and the owner takes his 30% profit margin which he puts into the bank or takes a trip to Germany where the money is spent in a different market, thus taking away from the GNP of the US! Your tax dollars hard at work, For GERMANY! I have over simplified but your example is over simplified also. If you want to discuss the economics of trickle down, I would be more than happy to but you will never convince me that a $1000 subsidy to a business will turn into a $100,000 house. Maybe the other way around.
As for your attempt at teaching econ. Please explain how a lumber subsidy turns into a 100,000 dollar home and increased taxes in the bottom line again. (Remember, in the trickle down theory there can not be any savings or the money is lost in the trickle!) You give a subsidy to someone who will spend the money in the open market today and you have 100% increase to the GNP. Subsidize lumber and the owner takes his 30% profit margin which he puts into the bank or takes a trip to Germany where the money is spent in a different market, thus taking away from the GNP of the US! Your tax dollars hard at work, For GERMANY! I have over simplified but your example is over simplified also. If you want to discuss the economics of trickle down, I would be more than happy to but you will never convince me that a $1000 subsidy to a business will turn into a $100,000 house. Maybe the other way around.
Curly
Member
BigHornRam said:
BHR, I totally agree with the trickle-down theory of economics as you outlined in an earlier post. I also think that with more salmon there will be more sportfisherman. With more fisherman there will be more dollars spent in the communities along the Columbia and Snake rivers. Without the salmon and the salmon fisherman a lot of jobs will be lost in the gorge and up the Snake river.
So, keeping the dams may prevent the loss of some jobs but I believe that breaching them and helping the salmon recover would be better in the long run and provide other jobs in the way of trickle down economics. There will be fishing guides, RV parks, motels, restaurants, fishing tackle manufacturers, gas sales, fishing license money, etc.
Ithaca 37
New member
BHR, Your lack of IQ is amazing!
"Figure out how to replace the energy production from the dams at a reasonable price, and the dams will go. Otherwise, no I don't think the salmon would create more jobs."
Unbelievable that anyone with half a brain would believe that bringing back the salmon runs to even half of what they were before the dams wouldn't be the best thing that could happen to all the towns along the river! Stupidity like BHR's is why I have him on ignore.
"Figure out how to replace the energy production from the dams at a reasonable price, and the dams will go. Otherwise, no I don't think the salmon would create more jobs."
Unbelievable that anyone with half a brain would believe that bringing back the salmon runs to even half of what they were before the dams wouldn't be the best thing that could happen to all the towns along the river! Stupidity like BHR's is why I have him on ignore.
Mutz...
That is the easiest question of all... and you should know it....
That is what the market price for the house is going for and you paid it, so no matter what the price of any thing or every thing considering...
The bottom line is what the consumer is willing to pay for a product is what it will sell for (or pretty close any way)...
Relatively... What do you think a cup of pop costs the store owner, cup, straw, top and pop, compared to the price you pay???
I don't hear any thing about these sorts of mark ups...
BigHornRam
Well-known member
Curly,
A guy has to have a job first before he goes to resturants and motels, hires a guide, buys tackle, and goes on a fishing trip. And most of the shrill dam breaching proponents on this site don't care a whole lot for guides anyway. Commercialization of wildlife, ask Buzz or IT what they think about it.
A guy has to have a job first before he goes to resturants and motels, hires a guide, buys tackle, and goes on a fishing trip. And most of the shrill dam breaching proponents on this site don't care a whole lot for guides anyway. Commercialization of wildlife, ask Buzz or IT what they think about it.
Cheese- please go back and read BHR's trickle down theory of economics. He turned a log into a house and then into property tax... He is taking a log which I suspect is worth less than 1000 dollars and turned it into property tax on a house worth 100k giving a multitude of people jobs in between. The problem with the trickle down theory of economics is money is saved by people who have a lot. Think about it Cheese, If you give Bill Gates a cool million dollars, he puts it in the bank along side his other millions...This does zero for the economy. You have basically taken it out of existance. If big brother gives you a few thousand, you take it to the store or buy that much needed wood burning stove. You hire a buddy to help you put it in for a couple of brews. Overall the few thousand is put directly back into the economy where it can be redistributed over and over using the same model BHR used. Whereas the cool mil of Bill Gates just sits there until he decides to give it to some charity. Yep, I sure do love Trickle down, I would just rather see the trickle up theory used instead.
This is one issue that I totally agree with Ithaca and Buzz.
Even if I did end up paying a little more for electricity it would be
worth every penny, I would absolutly love for my young boys to be
able to catch a salmon in Idaho.
I believe that the loss of the Dams would be completly offset by the money
healthy salmon and steelhead runs would produce.
Man the fishing would be great!!!!!!!!
Even if I did end up paying a little more for electricity it would be
worth every penny, I would absolutly love for my young boys to be
able to catch a salmon in Idaho.
I believe that the loss of the Dams would be completly offset by the money
healthy salmon and steelhead runs would produce.
Man the fishing would be great!!!!!!!!
jmcd- Actually I got the information I posted from the budget director for Ronald Reagan/ the king of trickle down economics. Even he knew supply side economics benefitted the rich and did little or nothing for economic growth or an increase to the GNP. More about "trickle down" or supply side economics...
"…the Reagan coalition prevailed again in the House and Congress passed the tax-cut legislation with a final frenzy of trading and bargaining. Again, Stockman was not exhilarated by the victory. On the contrary, it seemed to leave a bad taste in his mouth, as though the democratic process had finally succeeded in shocking him by its intensity and its greed. Once again, Stockman participated in the trading -- special tax concessions for oil -- lease holders and real-estate tax shelters, and generous loopholes that virtually eliminated the corporate income tax. Stockman sat in the room and saw it happen."
"'Do you realize the greed that came to the forefront?' Stockman asked with wonder. 'The hogs were really feeding. The greed level, the level of opportunism, just got out of control.'"
Reagan’s policies did more than simply cut income taxes. A large number of tax loopholes were written into the tax code that catered to special corporate interests. In fact many of the current scandals involving companies such as Enron are rooted in laws that were passed during the Reagan administration that gave these companies more legal legroom to work with and less oversight.
"…the Reagan coalition prevailed again in the House and Congress passed the tax-cut legislation with a final frenzy of trading and bargaining. Again, Stockman was not exhilarated by the victory. On the contrary, it seemed to leave a bad taste in his mouth, as though the democratic process had finally succeeded in shocking him by its intensity and its greed. Once again, Stockman participated in the trading -- special tax concessions for oil -- lease holders and real-estate tax shelters, and generous loopholes that virtually eliminated the corporate income tax. Stockman sat in the room and saw it happen."
"'Do you realize the greed that came to the forefront?' Stockman asked with wonder. 'The hogs were really feeding. The greed level, the level of opportunism, just got out of control.'"
Reagan’s policies did more than simply cut income taxes. A large number of tax loopholes were written into the tax code that catered to special corporate interests. In fact many of the current scandals involving companies such as Enron are rooted in laws that were passed during the Reagan administration that gave these companies more legal legroom to work with and less oversight.
MichaelR- I completely agree. The salmon runs would bring in a lot of business. It is also something I would like my kid to do. What price would you pay for the opportunity to see a world class run of salmon year after year? A little higher electric bill would be well worth it (which would be off set by less taxes because there would no need to barge smolt down the river).
Curly
Member
BigHornRam said:
BHR, the guys that live around there won't be staying at motels and RV parks.......it will be sportsmen that travel there to fish in a world class salmon fishery if the runs come back to what they once were. BTW, I don't really like guides or commercialization of wildlife either, but it will happen if the fish are there and it will create jobs. Also, just the project of breaching the dams will create many jobs in the area for what many years.
Curly said:
Aren't these things already there? Do you think breaching the dams would create more revenue from the fishing industry or just create a different source of revenue from the fishing industry. You have to keep in mind the businesses that may not be in existance if the dams are gone.
LMAO Mutz...
You need to look long term for the trickle down...
Just like a pension, it doesn’t happen over night...
How long is it before a tax cut is realized? At least a year and that is only the start...
How long does it take for the realized $$$ before ideas are put into place using that money for getting some thing new set up???
How long does it take for the building plans and the place of business to be drawn up and certified?
How long does it take for the needed permits to be put into place in most large metropolitan areas before the first shovel full of dirt can be moved?
How long does it take for the building to be completed?
How long does it take for the plant to be fitted and staffed?
How long does it take to get a customer base for the product?
How long is it before the trained personnel are laying product into boxes and getting them shipped?
How long is it before the first dollar of profit is actually received???
Years???
If you were actually old enough to understand the big picture and not so wet behind the ears, these questions wouldn't even have to be posted so you could have a smidgeon of an idea of this process...
And about the Gates putting a million in the bank...
How is this money not being used???
It doesn't sit their dormant collecting dust as you like to allude to.
It is being utilized by others to get the above operations set into motion, or so that there is money there for you to borrow that 100 K on your house.
It is also there so that individuals or large corporations can borrow to buy equipment needed in the processing of that log that is made into lumber in that house you live in.
To think people such as Bill Gates hoards money is absolutely absurd and shows that you are now talking into realms that you can't even understand, maybe never will, some people just never grasp this sort of thing, doesn't mean your slow Mutz, it just may be that you never can comprehend the concept of the big picture so to speak.
On Bill Gates again, he has created more million airs in the United States than any other man in history...
How is that hoarding what he has...
Just because you aren't privy to that part of the wealth bucket???
There are a lot of people who are continually jealous of what others have and never can get over the fact…
Mutz...
One more little thing before I get off here and let you ponder this if you are capable of such deep seated thought.
Follow the money trail on a tree from the time it is put into the ground until it is turned into lumber and finally set into place in a house and that house is sold, now look at all the processes, and then explain where there’s not a huge amount of tax generated off that one log....
You could use wheat, cattle, steal, or any other raw product you so desire, it is a long trail and there is a huge volume of $$$ generated from any given commodity, even one log...
Oh, by the way, you may want to look at log prices, figure out board footage, count the amount of logs averaged on a truck in your region, and then show me where you could find a log for a thousand bucks, or even close...
I will get out of this town and go make some real money since I am very good at raping and pillaging our natural resources for personal profit...
You need to look long term for the trickle down...
Just like a pension, it doesn’t happen over night...
How long is it before a tax cut is realized? At least a year and that is only the start...
How long does it take for the realized $$$ before ideas are put into place using that money for getting some thing new set up???
How long does it take for the building plans and the place of business to be drawn up and certified?
How long does it take for the needed permits to be put into place in most large metropolitan areas before the first shovel full of dirt can be moved?
How long does it take for the building to be completed?
How long does it take for the plant to be fitted and staffed?
How long does it take to get a customer base for the product?
How long is it before the trained personnel are laying product into boxes and getting them shipped?
How long is it before the first dollar of profit is actually received???
Years???
If you were actually old enough to understand the big picture and not so wet behind the ears, these questions wouldn't even have to be posted so you could have a smidgeon of an idea of this process...
And about the Gates putting a million in the bank...
How is this money not being used???
It doesn't sit their dormant collecting dust as you like to allude to.
It is being utilized by others to get the above operations set into motion, or so that there is money there for you to borrow that 100 K on your house.
It is also there so that individuals or large corporations can borrow to buy equipment needed in the processing of that log that is made into lumber in that house you live in.
To think people such as Bill Gates hoards money is absolutely absurd and shows that you are now talking into realms that you can't even understand, maybe never will, some people just never grasp this sort of thing, doesn't mean your slow Mutz, it just may be that you never can comprehend the concept of the big picture so to speak.
On Bill Gates again, he has created more million airs in the United States than any other man in history...
How is that hoarding what he has...
Just because you aren't privy to that part of the wealth bucket???
There are a lot of people who are continually jealous of what others have and never can get over the fact…
Mutz...
One more little thing before I get off here and let you ponder this if you are capable of such deep seated thought.
Follow the money trail on a tree from the time it is put into the ground until it is turned into lumber and finally set into place in a house and that house is sold, now look at all the processes, and then explain where there’s not a huge amount of tax generated off that one log....
You could use wheat, cattle, steal, or any other raw product you so desire, it is a long trail and there is a huge volume of $$$ generated from any given commodity, even one log...
Oh, by the way, you may want to look at log prices, figure out board footage, count the amount of logs averaged on a truck in your region, and then show me where you could find a log for a thousand bucks, or even close...
I will get out of this town and go make some real money since I am very good at raping and pillaging our natural resources for personal profit...
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