The Big Iron - .45-70

[BrentD]

I would like to hear some comparisons between the Marlin Guide Gun and the Winchester Model 1886 in 45-70.

My family has always been a Winchester family with a number of model 70's, a model 94 and a model 64.

I know the well storied functionality of the MGG and I'm wondering what I would be giving up if I followed my family tradition... https://www.winchesterguns.com/products/rifles/model-1886/model-1886-short-rifle.html

They are both fine rifles. I don't care for the short barrel Guide Gun, but if that's your thing, then you should be good to go.

There 2 differences between the two that matter to me. First, the Marlin is very easy to clean from the rear. Remove the lever screw and the lever pulls out of the bottom and you can pluck the bolt out of the rear. You can do it with your Leverman if you had to, and you can even buy a thumb screw that removes the need for any screwdriver at all. They are sorta ugly however. You can see it on my 1893 on that antelope.

The other difference is that the Marlin is probably lighter, even given similar barrels. The 86 is a huge action and the original 1895 Marlin .45-70 was similarly huge, but I believe the modern 1895 or guide gun action is really a 336 action or close to it. Might be wrong on that because I do not keep up on the modern models very well.

@squirrel another nice feature of the Marlin action is that you can take out the entire hammer/trigger group and tune it on your bench without having to trial and error disassemble-modify-reassemble-test-repeat, that gets a bit old. Trigger groups are a little different in the modern guns, however, compared to the old ones.

You will like them both. Maybe get one of each??

 

[Farmer20]

You made an excellent decision, and Henry appears to be a good investment. I plan on getting one someday. I love that rifle!

 

[blacksheep]

My Thompson Center Encore in 45-70. It loves the Hornady Leverevolution 325gr FTX.

 

[44hunter45]

My only hangup on the hard casts is wondering if they make enough of a wound channel on your typical heart/lung shot on a deer or elk compared to a soft point. With the bore diameter of the .45-70 it’s probably not worth worrying about. I have no doubt that’s the way to go for penetration.

Go find a copy of "Jacketed Bullet Performance with Cast Bullets" By Veral Smith. I would be shocked if the BPC shooters and hunters here didn't know who Veral was.

A true character. I spoke to Veral a few times on the phone when I was getting into WFN bullets for 44 Mag and 45 Colt.
One of my phone conversations I never was able to turn him from government mind control electromagnetic waves to any discussion of bullets.
He could dip into the tinfoil hat zone from time to time.

30 minutes on the LBT Molds website will give you a history of the sad pathos his later years have dealt him. The burning of his shop in 2022 and a massive stroke in 2024.
Veral literally wrote the book on Wide Flat Nose wound channels. Honestly, they could use the $35.

Now that Veral's shop is gone forever, I get my molds from MP-Molds. IMHO - They make the closest thing in terms of his design ideas.

To summarize his content - You need to think about firearms tech before the 30 WCF changed the rules. Before hydrostatic shock velocities were possible, tissue damage came from the design of the bullet. A flat meplate displaces tissue perpendicular to the path of bullet travel, regardless of expansion. Not hydrostatic shock, but more hydrostatic tissue displacement. As the flat face of the bullet interacts with the tissue, the tissue must go somewhere. The energy is transferred to that moving tissue, "weaponizing" it in the remaining tissue. WFN bullets cause a far greater wound channel than we children of jacketed mushrooms can imagine. Since they retain a lot of their mass, they also penetrate.

 

[MTLabrador]

I haven’t tried the casts yet, although I plan to. My rifle likes the 350 gr Hornady flat point with IMR4895, right at 1900 fps. Should be a great elk load and has very manageable recoil.

 

[std7mag]

Ouch!! #$@€%!!!
Bad words, Bad words!!!

Shooting the Henry Single Shot the other day, I either had my grip hand or my face in the wrong place.
Squeezed the trigger and my thumb came back and slammed into my nose.
Luckily not broken, but man does a nose bleed!!!

After the bleeding stopped, I shot another 3 rounds out of it.

Then looked in the barrel.
Holy crap, but the Federal Premium Hammer Down ammo is dirty!!

I bought it to break in the barrel and to have cases for reloading.
Can't wait to load up the 300gr Sierra JHP over N130.

 

[BrentD]

Ouch!! #$@€%!!!
Bad words, Bad words!!!

Shooting the Henry Single Shot the other day, I either had my grip hand or my face in the wrong place.
Squeezed the trigger and my thumb came back and slammed into my nose.
Luckily not broken, but man does a nose bleed!!!

After the bleeding stopped, I shot another 3 rounds out of it.

Then looked in the barrel.
Holy crap, but the Federal Premium Hammer Down ammo is dirty!!

I bought it to break in the barrel and to have cases for reloading.
Can't wait to load up the 300gr Sierra JHP over N130.

Stock is far too short. Add a lace-on leather pad of at least 3/4. Inch and your thumb and nose will get along much better.

 

[std7mag]

Stock is far too short. Add a lace-on leather pad of at least 3/4. Inch and your thumb and nose will get along much better.

That didn't sound good...

I think a large part of the issue is with the straight grip & comb, my face is low on it to align with the sights.

I'm having issues with seeing the sights to begin with.

Thinking about putting a rail and a green dot on it.

Something like this.

HE530G-GR-Holosun

 

[BrentD]

That didn't sound good...

I think a large part of the issue is with the straight grip & comb, my face is low on it to align with the sights.

I'm having issues with seeing the sights to begin with.

Thinking about putting a rail and a green dot on it.

Something like this.

HE530G-GR-Holosun

Seems like a shame to put something like that on a lever gun or single shot. Pretty far out of character. A tang sight would be much better or even just an aperture on your glasses would probably do what you need for a little as the cost of roll of electical tape.

For sure, the stock is too short. Way too short. You might have issues with comb height too, but it is still too short. There are any number of slip-on, lace-on, velcro-on recoil pads that you can cheaply buy and try. It may help with the drop at the comb as well. It is not the grip style.

 

[Rackwatcher95]

I’ve always loved lever actions, and since I was a kid I always wanted to own a .45-70. I decided that it was time and ended up coming home with a Henry with some very nice wood. The new Marlins I looked at were great, but I wanted blued steel and walnut in a carbine length barrel instead of laminate. As nice as a low powered scope would be for hunting purposes, I am probably going to stay with iron sights and add a set of Skinner peep sights. It will be a great camp companion in griz country and I’m going to enjoy hunting elk in the timber with it as well. The long range rifle bros and archery bros can hate me equally.

I have never loaded for the .45-70 before, so for those of you that have, I’m curious what powders and bullets you like. Since it will be used for elk and bears I’m thinking along the lines of a 350-405 gr soft point. I have quite a bit of IMR4064, which I know would work, but I’m open to suggestions for better powders too.

Some shameless rifle porn:

View attachment 336975

beautiful rifle !

 

[Jnasa]

My only hangup on the hard casts is wondering if they make enough of a wound channel on your typical heart/lung shot on a deer or elk compared to a soft point. With the bore diameter of the .45-70 it’s probably not worth worrying about. I have no doubt that’s the way to go for penetration.

I’m not sure you need hard cast. Having said that even without expansion it’s still putting a pretty decent hole through. With other calibers 1.5 times expansion you’d be slightly larger than a 7mm and slightly smaller than a 30 cal. Luckily it’s your gun so you can choose what you decide is best.