Sportsman for Federal Land Transfers

[Trial153]

This is my first post here, you might recognize my handle from places like Archery Talk, Bowsite, Archery Addix, Rokslide and Bowhunting.com Your probably thinking what's with the title of the tread? is this guy a nut or what? Well I am little nutty but that's not the point.

I wanted to express my surprise at the amount of hunters I been finding that are either out right on board with the prospect of a large scale federal to state land transfer or they are seemingly ambiguous to the possibility. Has anyone else found the same sediments? And if so what has been if any common denominators have you found that seems to consistent with these hunters? And lastly what if any particular lines of discussion has-been effective in gaining support from previously non supportive hunters?


Jim

 

[LopeHunter]

The pro for Federal selling anything is to get money to pay down debt. If you think a windfall from selling Federal property will not promptly be spent like a sailor on shore leave...then you have not been paying attention. Prudent financial management is not in the cards with the Federal government more prone to add headcount with any windfall then look at increased taxes in the future to maintain the employees.

On the other side of the coin, Federal land holdings that allow for balanced recreational activity are the primary places a DIY hunter can access land to hunt big game out here in the West. National Parks do not allow for balance recreational activity since hunting is prohibited. Closed roads or trails that are not maintained on Federal land holdings create virtually unreachable sections of land that in no way results in balanced recreational activity.

All in all, I trust the Federal government more than the other option which leads to private ownership. Selling to the state only slows the process that ends with the land being sold to private ownership. China, Inc, and some Middle Eastern families would love to buy huge chunks of land. If you think you will ever set foot on that land after the sale then seek help from qualified professionals.

 

[Big Fin]

The most effective manner in finding support is to not let it be directed as a partisan political discussion. That immediately causes a large share of people to tune out the message. Just the way it is when a discussion is couched as a us v. them, right v. left. And it plays in the false dilemma that is has to be one way or the other.

Examples that are relevant to that person are often the best examples. They are tangible. Colorado not allowing open hunting on state lands is the easiest example of all. How do we replace hunting on the 30 million acres of BLM and USFS in Colorado?

I also make sure I am not an apologist for the end result of how Federal lands at times could be better managed. That shows people you are not just standing up for one side of the other; that you are the team of hunters and anglers who require robust productive lands at the core of your advocacy.

Lastly, I make sure people understand that if they are frustrated with how the lands are managed, there is one group that can change that - Congress. "The Damn Feds" are Congress. The sooner people understand that, the better off we will all be. People want to get pissed at the local forester, the range manager, etc. He or she is really an employee carrying out the directives of Congress, with whatever resources Congress allocates to them, and must do so according to the laws Congress has passed.

If someone doesn't like how some laws impact land management, the local forester can't do anything to change that; your Senator or Congressman can. If someone dislikes the poor financial returns the agencies can get from Federal lands, the local range manager cannot change the royalty rate, the stumpage rate, the AUM rate; but Congress can.

Unfortunately, Congress know the American electorate has become less educated about these processes. The obstructionists in Congress know the American electorate view the political process as a morass with so much inertia that their voice makes no difference, and as such, the frustrated public will take it out on the more accessible person, their ranger, biologist, forester, etc.

That is where I have had my best successes. It is not easy. The other side has the easy narrative that appeals to the side of frustration and fear. To combat that requires a lot of time and a logical argument.

Good luck in your work. I hope you succeed in showing people some other perspectives, while understanding that a good portion of Americans don't want facts and information that might change perspectives. Have the judgement to know who those people are and walk away when they self-identify.

 

[beagle001]

Welcome Trial. Glad you made it over here! The weather is a little cooler on this forum compared to the others.

Our attempt at bringing the discussion to light in the other forum we are part of seemed to mostly be four of us preaching to the choir. It really is a shame that many don't want to "stick their neck out" when in reality, they have it so far tucked into the shell, they don't see the danger coming up behind them.

 

[Trial153]

Thanks for sharing your insight guys.
I think we all have way to go on this issue but I can't think of anything as deserving of our time and effort as fighting for this.

 

[u1299]

I can't say at least from the sentiment of those on this forum on the transfer issue that most if any support a transfer, at least it doesn't appear that way to me. What I do see however is a common theme on almost all the discussions, that basically says, we oppose a transfer but "hell will freeze over" before I'll support or trust that damn Obama (Obummer?) damn (Demoncrats) or damn (Helliary) to fix it. It really almost always comes down to this party v. that party discussion, and I'll be the first to admit I'm pretty political myself and guilty as charged. I lean Center Left on most issues, always have and I've been a hunter-angler my entire life and come from a family that brought me up that way. It gets a little frustrating to be lumped into the Environmentalist Wacko stereotype by simply pointing out it's the other side or a large portion of the other side who are behind the transfer idea. I wish it wasn't the case but transfer is in the Republican Party platform correct? That being said one response I got back on a comment I posted warned me to not use such a broad brush when demonizing the other side that by doing so I'm lumping some good people who support DIY hunters and our cause in with the rest who don't support us. A good point and noted. The other common thread or theme seems to be ( those Goddamn Feds)! I get sick to my stomach (po'd) every time I hear that. Way to many intellectually lazy people, hunters included, buy into the (must be the Feds. fault) hysteria, in my opinion. Here's an idea, make it a law that requires that the "benefits of public lands and what it would mean to wildlife and hunters if they were ever lost" be required teaching as part of Hunter Safety Programs.

 

[JayCO]

The most effective manner in finding support is to not let it be directed as a partisan political discussion. That immediately causes a large share of people to tune out the message. Just the way it is when a discussion is couched as a us v. them, right v. left. And it plays in the false dilemma that is has to be one way or the other.

Examples that are relevant to that person are often the best examples. They are tangible. Colorado not allowing open hunting on state lands is the easiest example of all. How do we replace hunting on the 30 million acres of BLM and USFS in Colorado?

Randy, I agree with both points here. I was thinking on the way in to work today about the obstacles that face those who speak out on these issues. e.g. We as hunters opposing federal land transfers. One of the problems (it seems to me), is that As opposition we are likely too easily dismissed as a small minority with a certain political/dogmatic leaning. "Oh, those are just the redneck wingnuts gripping their guns and barking about the land." While I disagree wholeheartedly with that, I think we're too easily dismissed. So I got to thinking about how to get a "volume boost" on the subject from groups that may not be perceived as in the same political bucket as most of the sportsman. If *more* people right or left are barking about these land transfers as a problem, the better we will be heard and we will less likely to be dismissed.

So what other groups should we engage and try to bring on as allies? Well for one, I'm in Colorado. Do you know what so many people love to do in Colorado? Climb 14ers. I encourage you to go check out 14ers.com. Talk about a massive community of people whose enjoyment of the outdoors relies on access to public lands! There are a few 14ers where access is on again/off again restricted due to private land issues. You ought to see how furious these folks get. I think we should lobby groups like this... Let them ponder the highest bidder buying land from the state with some 14k ft mountains on it, and calling it posted land.

Is this possible? I don't really know... But I have to assume that *access* to many of the mountains Coloradans feel is their natural right to climb could be severely restricted if some of these transfers go through.

So those are my thoughts. I think we need a volume boost from communities/organizations that aren't necessarily sporting/hunting focused. Make this an issue a much larger base is passionate about.

Thoughts?

 

[Gerald Martin]

Welcome Trial 153. We all know you are just coming to push your Obama Super Pac...... Okay, now that that's out of the way...I think way too many people are comfortable just looking at the letter behind a politician's name and thinking if it's the one they approve of, whatever he's selling is good medicine. Rather than being willing to look deeply at the issues and trying to come up with a good solution, the minute it looks like the other side has an argument or solution that seems to fix the problem, partisans will work against that solution to try and keep the other side from gaining the upper hand politically.

Many people would prefer that gridlock continues or no solution to a problem be implemented rather than the other side getting the credit for coming up with a solution.

Consequently, on either side of political labels, those who come out pushing the brand rather than the solution to the problem help close the very narrow minds of those who self-identify as the other side politically.

Sides are chosen because of sympathetic association rather than an ability to see a good solution to a problem.

 

[airlocksniffer]

Welcome Trial153. You'll definitely find a lot more discussion over hear on federal land transfer topics vs Rokslide. Sometimes it feels a bit lonely over there when talking about the land transfer/sale stuff. I think our country and even the hunting community is very divided in that many feel like we have to oppose anything supported by the other side of the aisle, no matter the costs. I also think buy in from folks who don't live but hunt out west is important. People need to understand that this is public land for everybody, even if you don't ever step foot out west. Our public lands are a very socialist idea, as are many other ideas coming out of the TR/FDR era. That word scares a lot of people so the first reaction is to oppose. I think patience, logic and reason are great tools with getting all people to support our public lands. It's definitely something for me I can get pretty fired up about, with a lot of credit for that passion going to Randy and the Hunt Talk community.

 

[JLS]

Welcome Trial153. You'll definitely find a lot more discussion over hear on federal land transfer topics vs Rokslide. Sometimes it feels a bit lonely over there when talking about the land transfer/sale stuff. I think our country and even the hunting community is very divided in that many feel like we have to oppose anything supported by the other side of the aisle, no matter the costs. I also think buy in from folks who don't live but hunt out west is important. People need to understand that this is public land for everybody, even if you don't ever step foot out west. Our public lands are a very socialist idea, as are many other ideas coming out of the TR/FDR era. That word scares a lot of people so the first reaction is to oppose. I think patience, logic and reason are great tools with getting all people to support our public lands. It's definitely something for me I can get pretty fired up about, with a lot of credit for that passion going to Randy and the Hunt Talk community.

Hippie liberal

 

[airlocksniffer]

Hippie liberal

 

[Schaaf]

Welcome Trial153. You'll definitely find a lot more discussion over hear on federal land transfer topics vs Rokslide. Sometimes it feels a bit lonely over there when talking about the land transfer/sale stuff. I think our country and even the hunting community is very divided in that many feel like we have to oppose anything supported by the other side of the aisle, no matter the costs. I also think buy in from folks who don't live but hunt out west is important. People need to understand that this is public land for everybody, even if you don't ever step foot out west. Our public lands are a very socialist idea, as are many other ideas coming out of the TR/FDR era. That word scares a lot of people so the first reaction is to oppose. I think patience, logic and reason are great tools with getting all people to support our public lands. It's definitely something for me I can get pretty fired up about, with a lot of credit for that passion going to Randy and the Hunt Talk community.

I agree, I post frequently on Rokslide and find it odd they don't get very fired up over this topic. It doesn't make a lot of sense especially with not being able to hunt on the majority of Colorado state lands because Rokslide has always seemed to be Colorado centric.

On Rokslide if you post a discussion on the weight of the First Lite Puffy vs the Kuiu Puffy you'll generate far more discussion than Federal land transfer/sale will.

 

[ORHunter]

Randy, I agree with both points here. I was thinking on the way in to work today about the obstacles that face those who speak out on these issues. e.g. We as hunters opposing federal land transfers. One of the problems (it seems to me), is that As opposition we are likely too easily dismissed as a small minority with a certain political/dogmatic leaning. "Oh, those are just the redneck wingnuts gripping their guns and barking about the land." While I disagree wholeheartedly with that, I think we're too easily dismissed. So I got to thinking about how to get a "volume boost" on the subject from groups that may not be perceived as in the same political bucket as most of the sportsman. If *more* people right or left are barking about these land transfers as a problem, the better we will be heard and we will less likely to be dismissed.

So what other groups should we engage and try to bring on as allies? Well for one, I'm in Colorado. Do you know what so many people love to do in Colorado? Climb 14ers. I encourage you to go check out 14ers.com. Talk about a massive community of people whose enjoyment of the outdoors relies on access to public lands! There are a few 14ers where access is on again/off again restricted due to private land issues. You ought to see how furious these folks get. I think we should lobby groups like this... Let them ponder the highest bidder buying land from the state with some 14k ft mountains on it, and calling it posted land.

Is this possible? I don't really know... But I have to assume that *access* to many of the mountains Coloradans feel is their natural right to climb could be severely restricted if some of these transfers go through.

So those are my thoughts. I think we need a volume boost from communities/organizations that aren't necessarily sporting/hunting focused. Make this an issue a much larger base is passionate about.

Thoughts?

I know mountian bikers use a lot of public land. I ran into a couple of them this year on a trail system I was hunting on. I know in Oregon the cascades are a very popular for mountain biking, which most of that is public land. So that's one group.

 

[ShootsManyBullets]

Looks like we've got some new guys jumping in the mix on this thread. Right on!

If you guys hang around here long enough and follow Randy's podcast along with some of his guests, you'll find a really diverse and well-informed group of Hunt Talkers. Probably the best informed people around actually and you'll get real discussions without personal insults.

 

[Schaaf]

Looks like we've got some new guys jumping in the mix on this thread. Right on!

If you guys hang around here long enough and follow Randy's podcast along with some of his guests, you'll find a really diverse and well-informed group of Hunt Talkers. Probably the best informed people around actually and you'll get real discussions without personal insults.

The most informed forum that provides beneficial discussion, in my opinion. The knowledge on display here is amazing and is what kept me coming back for more.

 

[ShootsManyBullets]

It's the quickest way for me to consume my hunting news. The wife gets her news from TMZ; I get my from HT.

 

[Gerald Martin]

Looks like we've got some new guys jumping in the mix on this thread. Right on!

If you guys hang around here long enough and follow Randy's podcast along with some of his guests, you'll find a really diverse and well-informed group of Hunt Talkers. Probably the best informed people around actually and you'll get real discussions without personal insults.

Without personal insults???? Although I must agree the atmosphere is completely different here than most sites. There's a lot more people with a lot of diverse ideas and a common passion for hunting and sound wildlife management.

 

[Trial153]

Welcome Trial 153. We all know you are just coming to push your Obama Super Pac...... Okay, now that that's out of the way...I think way too many people are comfortable just looking at the letter behind a politician's name and thinking if it's the one they approve of, whatever he's selling is good medicine. Rather than being willing to look deeply at the issues and trying to come up with a good solution, the minute it looks like the other side has an argument or solution that seems to fix the problem, partisans will work against that solution to try and keep the other side from gaining the upper hand politically.

Many people would prefer that gridlock continues or no solution to a problem be implemented rather than the other side getting the credit for coming up with a solution.

Consequently, on either side of political labels, those who come out pushing the brand rather than the solution to the problem help close the very narrow minds of those who self-identify as the other side politically.

Sides are chosen because of sympathetic association rather than an ability to see a good solution to a problem.

Some great points. It's very interesting to see how hunters respond to issues when the politics of the situation are at odds then the traditional political model they have grown accustomed. Its a brave new world and can't afford to assume anything politically anymore,

 

[Trial153]

Welcome Trial. Glad you made it over here! The weather is a little cooler on this forum compared to the others.

Our attempt at bringing the discussion to light in the other forum we are part of seemed to mostly be four of us preaching to the choir. It really is a shame that many don't want to "stick their neck out" when in reality, they have it so far tucked into the shell, they don't see the danger coming up behind them.

Nice to see you as well. I tend to understand their lack of response on the topic over there considering where most of the members are coming from, its somewhat understandable or as least predicable. Whitetail hunting in most of the country is a private land game and its drummed in them that private equates to better,

However its a shame because many hunter dont understand that what we are fighting for just comes down to opportunity. The opportunity to use our federal lands is afforded to everyone. Its not a dream or wish, right now it is a reality that any of us can experience, all that stopping you is you.

 

[Trial153]

Welcome Trial153. You'll definitely find a lot more discussion over hear on federal land transfer topics vs Rokslide. Sometimes it feels a bit lonely over there when talking about the land transfer/sale stuff. I think our country and even the hunting community is very divided in that many feel like we have to oppose anything supported by the other side of the aisle, no matter the costs. I also think buy in from folks who don't live but hunt out west is important. People need to understand that this is public land for everybody, even if you don't ever step foot out west. Our public lands are a very socialist idea, as are many other ideas coming out of the TR/FDR era. That word scares a lot of people so the first reaction is to oppose. I think patience, logic and reason are great tools with getting all people to support our public lands. It's definitely something for me I can get pretty fired up about, with a lot of credit for that passion going to Randy and the Hunt Talk community.

Thank you. hopefully we can all make a difference in changing some minds. Rokslide and some forums are chock full of guys live the life, full amazing experiences every year on our public lands. So if we cant find commonality there then we are lost. Alas I think much of it taken for granted. And the fastest way to loose anything we love and cherish is to take it for granted.