Sounds of (tag strategy) silence

[Hilljackoutlaw]

Don't feed the machine by buying points and then you don't have to worry about a strategy.

 

[Mallardsx2]

I'm not even a member of a couple "application sites" and they send me emails about when the deadlines are. lol

At this point, I would think that even Ray Charles would know when the Colorado and Wyoming deadline is........

 

[Zim]

My lone silver lining is I currently have 5 premium hunts among the 40 I apply for, that are preference based. Meaning I can and will cash those, one in each of the next 5 years. That is IF those states don't further water down/devalue my points (which is a huge IF). Outfitter welfare & bait-n-switch rule the day. I intend to milk those 5 hunts for everything they are worth. Most for looooong archery hunts. Any additional longshot hits along the way will be an unexpected bonus.

 

[Trap]

I just started hunting a few seasons ago and already can confirm coming from no background of hunting the community is overwhelmingly anti new hunters and no help. There are people helping and leading one down the right direction.

But I am wondering if new hunters are actually the problem for decreased drawing odds/point creep?!

I don't have the numbers but are new hunters not actually on the decline? I am wondering if increased travel/out of state hunting and worsening fish and game management are the actual cause?

Hunters are in decline but apps in every western state are on the incline. Like a rocket incline for apps. New hunters are NOT the problem. The influencers and hunting tag services ARE the problem. They have way overhyped applying in every western state and are glorifying western hunting to its death. Hunting fool and a few others early on built successful businesses helping people apply all over. Now everyone is trying to mimic that and it’s broken the draw systems in my opinion. I really think most hunters will have way more enjoyment hunting there home state. Maybe pick 1 western state to focus on if you don’t live where you can hunt elk, Mule deer, antelope etc. No western state draw systems were built to have every hunter in the nation applying every year. It’s becoming a Ponzi scheme lol. Try and find some local experienced hunters in your area. That’s what hunting used to be about. Not running excel spreadsheets and becoming “addicted” to the gambling of the draw systems. I don’t know where you live but pm me anytime and I will help with info if I can

 

[WapitiBob]

But I am wondering if new hunters are actually the problem for decreased drawing odds/point creep?!

New hunters have no affect point creep, they don't have any points. When they do get points they only affect those at their level or below. Point creep is coming from the people that have been in the system for years but have only bought points, nobody knows they exist till they actually apply.

As for all the information available, I see a whole lot of people that don't know how to use it. Twice in the last day people mentioning their point level and where they're applying; a brief look at the odds shows they have zero chance to draw those tags even at last years tag numbers.

 

[QuazyQuinton]

New hunters have no affect point creep, they don't have any points. When they do get points they only affect those at their level or below. Point creep is coming from the people that have been in the system for years but have only bought points, nobody knows they exist till they actually apply.

As for all the information available, I see a whole lot of people that don't know how to use it. Twice in the last day people mentioning their point level and where they're applying; a brief look at the odds shows they have zero chance to draw those tags even at last years tag numbers.

The counterpoint to your comment is that point buyers don't drive point creep at all. I have bought points for Wyoming elk every year for the last 9 years without applying for a single tag. How many general tags could I have had in that time? Probably at least 3. That means 3 other people got to hunt a general tag because I bought a point and didn't contribute to point creep. You're welcome, wherever you are.

Of course, at some point I hope to use those points for a hunt, and then I guess I'll be contributing to point creep. Ultimately, though, point creep is driven by demand outpacing supply. And to a lesser degree by hunters who focus on needing a top-tier tag.

QQ

 

[ImBillT]

New hunters have no affect point creep, they don't have any points. When they do get points they only affect those at their level or below. Point creep is coming from the people that have been in the system for years but have only bought points, nobody knows they exist till they actually apply.

As for all the information available, I see a whole lot of people that don't know how to use it. Twice in the last day people mentioning their point level and where they're applying; a brief look at the odds shows they have zero chance to draw those tags even at last years tag numbers.

I agree with everything else completely. The bold part, I only partly agree with. Even without the considering point buyers, the eventual point total equals tags/apps. Look at ten random hunts in a state you will absolutely find hunts that currently require fewer points than the tags/apps number. As an example, just pretend that a new point system is going to be implemented. Currently a hunt has 10 tags, and 300 applicants. It will EVENTUALLY require 30pts if nothing changes. But this fall it will require zero points, because no one has any. Next year it will require 1. It goes on until it levels out, and all the whole people will be complaining that a hunt they drew with 2pts a few years ago now requires 4pts, but the data was staring them in the face when I they asked for the point system.

Then there’s an issue that compounds the problem. In year one, where does everyone apply? The best unit! After a few decades, when people with 15pts finally realize they’ll never be able to draw the unit that currently takes 20pts, then apply in a new unit, thus making a unit that was 12apps/tag suddenly be at 18apps/tag. And that trickles on down. Some of the better opportunity states have 20-30 applicants for each tag, but people still aren’t applying for the mid tier. It’s coming. States like Utah and Nevada have well over 100 apps/tag. Those point systems are in distress.

You’re 100% correct about people not being able to use the information. Every year people apply for tags they cannot draw. It’s worse than that though. I have put in two applications based on errors I spotted in goHunt. Errors that if acted upon will result in much higher draw odds for those two applications this year. I also put in a different application based on data that I expect most people to miss.

 

[Hircine]

Can't say I disagree with you. I am trying to get into hunting myself. I grew up in a family that never did it. It's a shock when I see how much money is invested into hunting. Whether it be supplies, tags, travel etc. This may be one of the factors that might weed out some folks over time. It is difficult for people that want to help others but don't want to risk their own success in the process. If only our American ancestors understood the value of conservation from the beginning then maybe things would be different.

 

[Trap]

Can't say I disagree with you. I am trying to get into hunting myself. I grew up in a family that never did it. It's a shock when I see how much money is invested into hunting. Whether it be supplies, tags, travel etc. This may be one of the factors that might weed out some folks over time. It is difficult for people that want to help others but don't want to risk their own success in the process. If only our American ancestors understood the value of conservation from the beginning then maybe things would be different.

You can spend an unlimited amount of money on hunting. I have probably at times spent more than I should. In my opinion, you don’t need to spend all that money if you don’t want to. Gear is probably the most overhyped part of hunting. You don’t need to spend 4000 dollars on camo for example, you also don’t have to throw money at every draw tag on the planet. See post above about influencers, tag services etc. People are being Influenced to think that’s what hunting is about and requires. My experience has been different. When I was broke in college I had 1 year that stands out. I killed my biggest whitetail ever, a nice 6 point bull, a great antelope and filled my unlimited sheep tag. On the first 3 hunts I was wearing blue jeans on the sheep hunt I splurged on army navy camo and wool pants.i had one gun a cheap 30-06. I have freinds that are more successful than me at hunting. They never leave our state, still wear army navy wool and kill big bucks and bulls constantly. I probably went on too long but I don’t want new hunters led astray by all the commercialization of hunting. Today I own probably 20 guns and have gear galore but I’m not having more fun or success. If you want to invest a bunch of money in hunting go for it. Just remember you don’t have too. I personally don’t feel applying in multiple states is worth the investment at this point. I’m concentrating on hunting my home state which keeps me busy year round. I apply in 1 other state only because I hunt there with family and lived there for years. My brother moved to Gunnison co so I will probably do points for deer in co just to hunt with him again. Hunt in your backyard or home state first. That’s my advice for a new hunter.

 

[Hircine]

You can spend an unlimited amount of money on hunting. I have probably at times spent more than I should. In my opinion, you don’t need to spend all that money if you don’t want to. Gear is probably the most overhyped part of hunting. You don’t need to spend 4000 dollars on camo for example, you also don’t have to throw money at every draw tag on the planet. See post above about influencers, tag services etc. People are being Influenced to think that’s what hunting is about and requires. My experience has been different. When I was broke in college I had 1 year that stands out. I killed my biggest whitetail ever, a nice 6 point bull, a great antelope and filled my unlimited sheep tag. On the first 3 hunts I was wearing blue jeans on the sheep hunt I splurged on army navy camo and wool pants.i had one gun a cheap 30-06. I have freinds that are more successful than me at hunting. They never leave our state, still wear army navy wool and kill big bucks and bulls constantly. I probably went on too long but I don’t want new hunters led astray by all the commercialization of hunting. Today I own probably 20 guns and have gear galore but I’m not having more fun or success. If you want to invest a bunch of money in hunting go for it. Just remember you don’t have too. I personally don’t feel applying in multiple states is worth the investment at this point. I’m concentrating on hunting my home state which keeps me busy year round. I apply in 1 other state only because I hunt there with family and lived there for years. My brother moved to Gunnison co so I will probably do points for deer in co just to hunt with him again. Hunt in your backyard or home state first. That’s my advice for a new hunter.

Good truthful insight. Our ancestors never had camo and they were still successful. If anything, over time I could aquire gear that I find is needed. I live in Iowa right now so no elk, moose etc. Just the rampant whitetail population which I don't particularly fancy (maybe it's because I see so many dead on the road, so no need to hunt em). I've never actually hunted before and don't know any hunters so I feel like there's a big wall to hurdle to find someone that's willing to take me out in the field and teach me.

 

[TheJason]

I've never actually hunted before and don't know any hunters so I feel like there's a big wall to hurdle to find someone that's willing to take me out in the field and teach me.

I think Tom Terrific is moving to Iowa. Maybe he’ll help you.

 

[Hircine]

I think Tom Terrific is moving to Iowa. Maybe he’ll help you.

I'm looking at moving out of iowa. The state is a hell hole. Although I'll always be a hawkeyes fan.
P.S. Kirk Ferentz needs to be fired.

 

[LCH]

Good truthful insight. Our ancestors never had camo and they were still successful. If anything, over time I could aquire gear that I find is needed. I live in Iowa right now so no elk, moose etc. Just the rampant whitetail population which I don't particularly fancy (maybe it's because I see so many dead on the road, so no need to hunt em). I've never actually hunted before and don't know any hunters so I feel like there's a big wall to hurdle to find someone that's willing to take me out in the field and teach me.

1st Lesson : Whitetail hunting > Elk hunting

 

[Trap]

Good truthful insight. Our ancestors never had camo and they were still successful. If anything, over time I could aquire gear that I find is needed. I live in Iowa right now so no elk, moose etc. Just the rampant whitetail population which I don't particularly fancy (maybe it's because I see so many dead on the road, so no need to hunt em). I've never actually hunted before and don't know any hunters so I feel like there's a big wall to hurdle to find someone that's willing to take me out in the field and teach me.

That’s funny on the whitetai. I know quite a few hunters living in Idaho that put in year after year trying to get drawn for an Iowa whitetail tag. I think it takes a couple years for a nr? Meanwhile,apparently ,Iowa guys are putting in for moose, elk etc in Idaho lol. I guess a lot of us think the grass is greener across state lines. Just a suggestion, try and find someone local that will give advice/ help on killing one of those grain fed hog whitetail before you move. You might develop a taste for them. If you move and really get into the hunting later, you might regret not chasing whitetail in what’s truly a destination state to hunt them

 

[Hircine]

That’s funny on the whitetai. I know quite a few hunters living in Idaho that put in year after year trying to get drawn for an Iowa whitetail tag. I think it takes a couple years for a nr? Meanwhile,apparently ,Iowa guys are putting in for moose, elk etc in Idaho lol. I guess a lot of us think the grass is greener across state lines. Just a suggestion, try and find someone local that will give advice/ help on killing one of those grain fed hog whitetail before you move. You might develop a taste for them. If you move and really get into the hunting later, you might regret not chasing whitetail in what’s truly a destination state to hunt them

All valid points. Apparently NR hunting is expensive here in Iowa. I don't believe that's just since they do so much to help conservation monetarily speaking. Too bad there's not a resident season and a nonresident season. Maybe that would help allieviate some tensions.

 

[Jape]

It should be abundantly clear what the problem is because it correlates perfectly with the rise in point creep: abundance of information available to everyone, and the commercialization of wildlife by states, influencers, “celebrities”, and information/application companies. Joe Schmo from state X, who only used to hunt his home state for elk, started getting bombarded with advertisements and hunting shows about 20 years ago offering all this information for an incredibly low price. So, he and the other several million like him started applying in every western state. Honestly, it’s pretty easy to see how we got here.

 

[Firedude]

It should be abundantly clear what the problem is because it correlates perfectly with the rise in point creep: abundance of information available to everyone, and the commercialization of wildlife by states, influencers, “celebrities”, and information/application companies. Joe Schmo from state X, who only used to hunt his home state for elk, started getting bombarded with advertisements and hunting shows about 20 years ago offering all this information for an incredibly low price. So, he and the other several million like him started applying in every western state. Honestly, it’s pretty easy to see how we got here.

Right! I mean so many guys are boycotting the Idaho sheep draws because a Trans influencer is going. Especially since you have to compare who's is bigger! I could definitely see any manly man refusing to apply for the next 10 years! You aren't a true hunter if you don't boycott Idaho draws! And I support you guys 100%!

 

[cgasner1]

Right! I mean so many guys are boycotting the Idaho sheep draws because a Trans influencer is going. Especially since you have to compare who's is bigger! I could definitely see any manly man refusing to apply for the next 10 years! You aren't a true hunter if you don't boycott Idaho draws! And I support you guys 100%!

Can catch me sipping a bud light with my moose in Idaho

 

[ImBillT]

Too bad there's not a resident season and a nonresident season. Maybe that would help allieviate some tensions.

That’s very outside the box. It seems like it might actually cure a lot of the ills of non-resident hunting. I think this idea should at least get some more debate, especially by people who can actually implement such a thing. I’ve never heard it anywhere else, and it has certainly never occurred to me. I don’t think it’s as simple as “residents hunt this season, and non-residents hunt that season”, but I think incorporating it on some level, in some situations could have some very advantageous utility. Unfortunately once you complicate an idea 90% of people abandon it, so such an idea may never go anywhere no matter how could implementing it on some level might be.

 

[Hircine]

I'm a 70% disabled vet. I deployed to combat zones but never got shot at. Nonners generally expect disabled means some crazy shit happened to them when in reality most have done a demanding job where they sacrificed their own well being for the betterment of our country. I only did 4 years but in that 4 years my body degraded faster than what I thought was possible. I would have done 20 but I knew my body wouldn't last.