Some hunts just like the old days

[Benfromalbuquerque]

I am a proponent of more MZ seasons over more archery or more rifle. Why? Because archery doesn’t go bang and the orange army has plenty of opportunity already.

Here’s the point: Some restriction for special high-demand species/areas may be best. I’m not calling for total exclusion of all modern amenities on MZ hunts nor am I saying that all MZ hunters should settle for 50 yard shots that sometimes fire.

 

[1100RemingtonMan]

I have always felt Muzzelloader seasons should be open sights and side locks muzzleloader. Me personally the Muzzleloader were started as a more primitive weapon choice and now people want to use inline muzzle loaders scopes and jacketed bullets. They could care less about the traditional muzzleloader they just want another season with a Gun that can shoot hundreds of yards like a Highpowered rifle with the only restriction it loads different.
Yes I plan on hunting with a Patched Round Ball in Iowa next month here in Iowa do I give up a lot over a Modern gun Yes but this is a Sport and it's the time in the woods that counts, IMHO

 

[Dan O]

The modern muzzleloaders are typical of the gaming people do in the shooting sports. If you want a primitive style hunt then keep it like the 1800's and hunt with Black powder and patched round ball or bullet and iron sights.
But heck that's just my opinion.
Dan

 

[FLS]

There is nothing to keep anyone wanting to use a traditional black powder rifle from doing so,
that I’m aware of.
Same with shooting sports. Most I’m aware of have divisions based on equipment restrictions, which allow folks to compete with the equipment of their choosing.

 

[EastTNHunter]

If they do this then they should also ban compound bows because they are too modern and shoot too far. But I don’t see that happening.

The challenge of a ML is that you have 1 shot, then you have to reload from the muzzle in a fashion slower than a cartridge gun. If you want to hunt primitive, then great, but inline muzzleloaders have been around for longer than cartridge guns, although the newer ones are improved.

BTW, I love that I live in a state that offers a lot of options. I’m getting back into smokeless muzzle loading, but not long range stuff. I’m doing because of reliability and cleanliness. I don’t have to worry about the corrosion that happens so quickly in our humid environment from black powder residue.

My longest muzzle loader kill is about 150yd. Most are under 100

 

[Benfromalbuquerque]

Yeah! That’s what I’m saying, just more muzzleloader seasons, not limited MZ. Now me personally, I’ve got a .54 Lyman Deerstalker an killed my first deer with a .54 T/C Renegade. So I totally get it, that affinity for traditional style.

 

[Aussie_hunter_JD]

Having a muzzleloader season but then allowing scoped guns with no exposed ignition source etc. That shoots out several hundred yards seems to defeat the purpose of having a muzzleloader season. It seems a lot of guys hunt muzzleloader seasons just to get an extra crack at hunting not because they're actually interested in the experience of using a muzzleloader.

I have an unscoped inline but am currently waiting on my new sidelock to turn up. We have no weapon specific seasons in my state so as long as it meets legal minimum you can use rifle, muzzleloader or archery. I just love black powder!

 

[Benfromalbuquerque]

Having a muzzleloader season but then allowing scoped guns with no exposed ignition source etc. That shoots out several hundred yards seems to defeat the purpose of having a muzzleloader season. It seems a lot of guys hunt muzzleloader seasons just to get an extra crack at hunting not because they're actually interested in the experience of using a muzzleloader.

I have an unscoped inline but am currently waiting on my new sidelock to turn up. We have no weapon specific seasons in my state so as long as it meets legal minimum you can use rifle, muzzleloader or archery. I just love black powder!

What caliber did you get for the sidelock? Do you know the rate of twist? In my experience ain’t nothing shoots as well within 100 yards as prb in my 1:48. Great Plains bullets over 80gr won’t print pretty, but minute of deer </=100 yards.

 

[Bambistew]

All hunting weapons have evolved. Why we have multiple seasons is simple... it's purely about hunters being selfish, reduce pressure on my preferred form of hunting. I've said it 100 times. Hunters are THE most selfish people on the planet.

If we're going to make muzz primitive, lets take them all back 100 years. Same opportunity, but success would certainly diminish as ranges have to be reduced substantially... and the size of animals (tophy) would increase dramatically. Very few hunters would agree to that. Who wants to give up their compound bow that they can shoot to 70-100 yards, their rifle with turrets that can shoot to 800, or a muzz with range to 300+ yards. The amount of support reduction of technology would be very small. I'd support it 100% but am likely in the minority... and frankly the reduction is pure selfishness on my part to make it harder for others while really not making harder for me, or at least me not caring about my reduced success at the expense of others. Frankly, I think the success rate of muzz/bow has risien 2-3 fold over what it was 50 years ago and is approaching success rates for rifle hunting. Rifle has remained about the same. It isn't about making it hard, its about hunters being better at killing stuff.

What is benchmark for the the "modern" muzzleloader? Is it un-rifled barrels, is it flintlock or cap, black powder only?

 

[Aussie_hunter_JD]

What caliber did you get for the sidelock? Do you know the rate of twist? In my experience ain’t nothing shoots as well within 100 yards as prb in my 1:48. Great Plains bullets over 80gr won’t print pretty, but minute of deer </=100 yards.

It's a 50 cal with a 1:24 twist. Fast twist i know but we only had two importers into Australia, Lyman and Pedersoli and last year Lyman pulled the pin. So I ordered hawken hunter by Pedersoli. PRB aren't legal in my state at any rate, need a minimum weight of 230 gr projectile.

I want to run heavy conicals through it but can't find any in Aus, don't really have the time or money to get into casting at this point in time. So I'm at loggerheads on what to do.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

All hunting weapons have evolved. Why we have multiple seasons is simple... it's purely about hunters being selfish, reduce pressure on my preferred form of hunting. I've said it 100 times. Hunters are THE most selfish people on the planet.

If we're going to make muzz primitive, lets take them all back 100 years. Same opportunity, but success would certainly diminish as ranges have to be reduced substantially... and the size of animals (tophy) would increase dramatically. Very few hunters would agree to that. Who wants to give up their compound bow that they can shoot to 70-100 yards, their rifle with turrets that can shoot to 800, or a muzz with range to 300+ yards. The amount of support reduction of technology would be very small. I'd support it 100% but am likely in the minority... and frankly the reduction is pure selfishness on my part to make it harder for others while really not making harder for me, or at least me not caring about my reduced success at the expense of others. Frankly, I think the success rate of muzz/bow has risien 2-3 fold over what it was 50 years ago and is approaching success rates for rifle hunting. Rifle has remained about the same. It isn't about making it hard, its about hunters being better at killing stuff.

What is benchmark for the the "modern" muzzleloader? Is it un-rifled barrels, is it flintlock or cap, black powder only?

Agreed.

Archery hunts/ muzzy hunters/ crossbow/ shotgun, listen here's the bullshit test. There are a bunch of states with any weapon seasons, I never see you out there with your long bow or muzzy you pick the most efficacious weapon your allowed to use every single time... and then complain. I'm sorry there isn't an archery season during the mule deer rut in CO, draw a rifle tag, and hunt with your bow ... I also think it's stupid CO has an early rifle deer season, you want a velvet buck buy a bow...

I get having weapons limitations for safety, aka archery or shotgun only near houses, I get having an archery season and allowing hunting of animals during a more venerable time of the year because of reduced success rates eg. archery season during the elk rut.

But the shoe horning methods in just because someone want to use there method and wants everyone else too as well

 

[Benfromalbuquerque]

It's a 50 cal with a 1:24 twist. Fast twist i know but we only had two importers into Australia, Lyman and Pedersoli and last year Lyman pulled the pin. So I ordered hawken hunter by Pedersoli. PRB aren't legal in my state at any rate, need a minimum weight of 230 gr projectile.

I want to run heavy conicals through it but can't find any in Aus, don't really have the time or money to get into casting at this point in time. So I'm at loggerheads on what to do.

Sabots is likely where you’ll have to go to get accurate bullets that meet minimum grain weight. These Scorpion sabots are popular over here for people with that twist rate. You may have to swab more with your copper brush to take out plastic fouling. What the hell though, if it meets all of your requirements and shoots within acceptable groups.

Scorpion PT Gold

Harvester Muzzleloading offers a belted bullet and the new crush rib sabot that crushes the competition. Also home to our new polymer tip bullet, Scorpion PT Gold.

www.harvestermuzzleloading.com

 

[Aussie_hunter_JD]

All hunting weapons have evolved. Why we have multiple seasons is simple... it's purely about hunters being selfish, reduce pressure on my preferred form of hunting. I've said it 100 times. Hunters are THE most selfish people on the planet.

If we're going to make muzz primitive, lets take them all back 100 years. Same opportunity, but success would certainly diminish as ranges have to be reduced substantially... and the size of animals (tophy) would increase dramatically. Very few hunters would agree to that. Who wants to give up their compound bow that they can shoot to 70-100 yards, their rifle with turrets that can shoot to 800, or a muzz with range to 300+ yards. The amount of support reduction of technology would be very small. I'd support it 100% but am likely in the minority... and frankly the reduction is pure selfishness on my part to make it harder for others while really not making harder for me, or at least me not caring about my reduced success at the expense of others. Frankly, I think the success rate of muzz/bow has risien 2-3 fold over what it was 50 years ago and is approaching success rates for rifle hunting. Rifle has remained about the same. It isn't about making it hard, its about hunters being better at killing stuff.

What is benchmark for the the "modern" muzzleloader? Is it un-rifled barrels, is it flintlock or cap, black powder only?

I agree with that though, people are too focussed on success.

Here in Aus in sambar country, which is to say big mountain country (see pic) long range shooting is taking off. And people say willingly (my brother being one) "I'm sick of seeing big deer and not being able to get them". I point out that that's the reason there are still plenty of big ones. I'm not jumping on a high horse but I made the decision to mostly stop hunting with scopes myself and when I do limit my shot distances because the integrity of the hunt and respect for the animals plays a lot on my mind these days. That has come about from doing stupid things, I've shot game from way too far before and they honestly had bugger all chance to know I was there.


Where do you draw the line though i guess?

This discussion always reminds me of the Aldo Leopold quote about improving the pump without improving the well when we talk about how to draw the lines on what's on as we continue to invent ways to make hunting easier. Is it OK to hunt with a recurve? Maybe a compound is a limit or like a mate of mine who hunts with a sight that automatically ranges and flat out tells you where to aim? It then become what's ethics?

I think the larger problem is a societal problem proliferated by social media and its ilk. Instant gratification is a requirement these days, and that itself includes hunting. People don't want to have to truly earn an animal by limiting their technology if it means they might miss out.

Sorry that's a very long winded, ranting way of saying I think that rather than restricting the bare minimum it would be better for the animals and for the people if it were to restrict as much as possible on weapon specific seasons. It would do people good to have to be better hunters and risk missing out, failure has always been good to me in the long run.

 

[Benfromalbuquerque]

Agreed.

Archery hunts/ muzzy hunters/ crossbow/ shotgun, listen here's the bullshit test. There are a bunch of states with any weapon seasons, I never see you out there with your long bow or muzzy you pick the most efficacious weapon your allowed to use every single time... and then complain. I'm sorry there isn't an archery season during the mule deer rut in CO, draw a rifle tag, and hunt with your bow ... I also think it's stupid CO has an early rifle deer season, you want a velvet buck buy a bow...

I get having weapons limitations for safety, aka archery or shotgun only near houses, I get having an archery season and allowing hunting of animals during a more venerable time of the year because of reduced success rates eg. archery season during the elk rut.

But the shoe horning methods in just because someone want to use there method and wants everyone else too as well

That’s enlightening and I hadn’t considered that. Yes, I agree with you both that the definition of “modern” MZ is nebulous and the seasons/special hunts are also at times nonsensical.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

That’s enlightening and I hadn’t considered that. Yes, I agree with you both that the definition of “modern” MZ is nebulous and the seasons/special hunts are also at times nonsensical.

“Muzzleloader” lol

 

[noharleyyet]

View attachment 164590
“Muzzleloader” lol

 

[2rocky]

I think we can all agree killing power of the actual projectiles has improved in the last 200 years regardless of archery black powder or centerfire rifles. And that is good for our pursuit of quick kills. But without the optics, this long range stuff doesn't work. I wonder what hunting seasons would look like if there was just 2 seasons. Scope and no scope. Would there be a resurgence in Vernier Tang Sights?

When you talk to non hunters...Scope magnification seems to be their sticking point in fair chase.

 

[Aussie_hunter_JD]

I think we can all agree killing power of the actual projectiles has improved in the last 200 years regardless of archery black powder or centerfire rifles. And that is good for our pursuit of quick kills. But without the optics, this long range stuff doesn't work. I wonder what hunting seasons would look like if there was just 2 seasons. Scope and no scope. Would there be a resurgence in Vernier Tang Sights?

When you talk to non hunters...Scope magnification seems to be their sticking point in fair chase.

Lead conicals have been around for a while and do a good job killing things quickly. But I do think you're correct that anything that causes death more quickly and painlessly is good. To me it's a separate issue to how that method of death is delivered though.

I agree that is can be a point of conjection, anything that allows you to magnify real life by 10 or 18 times if you think about it is hard to justify from a pure fair chase perspective. I guess we're just so used to them it doesn't register as a consideration for most folks.

Another problem we have here is people shooting outside legal hours, try doing that with open sights!

 

[shannerdrake]

This is always a difficult discussion. The problem with drawing lines is that most guys want the line drawn to where he stands with him being on the “right” side of the line.
There are guys who roll their eyes and think the Nitrofire is ridiculous, but stuff 777 pellets down the tube and breech load a 209 primer then snap their incline closed with a lighted reticle scope on top.
The sidelock percussion cap guys roll their eyes at those guys.
The flintlock guys roll their eyes at all of us.
I might start shooting a smoothbore musket so I can roll my eyes at everyone!

Joking aside, I support anything that increases opportunity. I’d happily buy a flinter if it offered more chances to draw a tag.

 

[Benfromalbuquerque]

Yeah, same here, I’d go flintlock or even matchlock if it meant I had greater access.