Solar Energy Comments due April 18, 2024

[Sytes]

 

[whatnot]

It really is incalculable to understand what the true long term costs of something are, or there enviromtental impacts. Its mostly a "political football" as @Big Fin would say. A great case in point is texas - known well as a deeply red state - it has the highest renewable output in the country.

The ecological impact/damage from a solar farm comes primarily from mining. The precious metals mined are mined with ugly practice and terrible for the enviroment, no doubt. Recycling them well is also not practiced, at the moment. Which represents its own set of issues and complications, obviously.

However, the area the panels are on is static - with a typical design life of 30-40 years. In that time frame - to generate the same electricity - the area disturbed to mine that much coal or extract that much gas would be much larger. The mine uses fuel, equipment, and all sorts of other things that ultimately came out of the dirt too.

It is exceedingly difficult (especially because info is typically politically charged to overstate one side of the facts) to weigh all options and understand the true impacts/costs/benefits of x vs y in energy development and conservation.

Our effort as hunters should be focused on defining critical areas and scientific justifications for them. If thats in as many as areas as possible - win. But going wholesale "No development" isnt going to be an argument that sells well enough to make a difference against public interest in goods/power/water and corporate interest in profit.

Then we get rolled.

Explain the difference in what's happening now.

On one side we have the Mike Lee crowd.

Now we have the other side, who traditionally have been much better on public ground, who have found their way to use it as a revenue source.

 

[whatnot]

Agreed.


Little less IPA, might mean more time to equal the SAVE OUR CANYONS hippies that I see and hear on public land issues.

 

[Forkyfinder]

Then we get rolled.

Explain the difference in what's happening now.

On one side we have the Mike Lee crowd.

Now we have the other side, who traditionally have been much better on public ground, who have found their way to use it as a revenue source.

It isnt explicitly right and left - again look at texas.

 

[seeth07]

It isnt explicitly right and left - again look at texas.

I think that is why I end up most liking candidates that are not extreme left or right. The closer they are to the middle of the spectrum, they higher likelihood they support the sportsman's ideology.

 

[SAJ-99]

"WE", actually don't have to be agreeable.

Sort of do, actually. We are a huge minority. When any minority starts from a position of "I'm a bad ass and I'm going to fight" it turns away people that might be sympathetic to the cause and typically results in the minority getting its ass kicked.

And I can think of a lot of BLM that is better used as a solar farm than putting it on private land that is ideal wintering ground.

 

[whatnot]

It isnt explicitly right and left - again look at texas.

Texas has 2% public land. It's not a good comparison

 

[Forkyfinder]

Texas has 2% public land. It's not a good comparison

Those guys wearing red ties greenlighted that. Thats the point. It is a good comparison - development is development to wildlife. Worrying about public land only - and negelecting a lot of superior habitat is on private land.

 

[whatnot]

Sort of do, actually. We are a huge minority. When any minority starts from a position of "I'm a bad ass and I'm going to fight" it turns away people that might be sympathetic to the cause and typically results in the minority getting its ass kicked.

And I can think of a lot of BLM that is better used as a solar farm than putting it on private land that is ideal wintering ground.

That hasn't been the case with wolves, bears, copper bullets, etc, etc, etc.

We all heard the same type claims on Corner Crossing, even from the owner of the joint.

"Better not piss anyone off"

"They have the money and power, we dont"

Don't want to risk court"

Amazing what happens when folks don't just roll over.

And again. If hunters/fishermen lose, what would be the difference in that and this?

This isn't the best solution, nuke power is, this is just the cheapest and easiest. Fill Nevada full of panels to power LA.

 

[whatnot]

Those guys wearing red ties greenlighted that. Thats the point. It is a good comparison - development is development to wildlife. Worrying about public land only - and negelecting a lot of superior habitat is on private land.

Private land has advocates

 

[elkantlers]

This is happening in the best Pronghorn unit in Utah right now.

Last summer vs now

 

[SAJ-99]

Here is a project in Oregon that is designed in a different way that may be more agreeable to HT. It is on private but designed to maintain ag lands and wildlife corridors.

Brookfield Files Notice of Intent to Build 900-MW Solar-Plus-Storage Facility in North Central Oregon

Brookfield Renewable U.S. has filed preliminary plans to build a solar-plus-storage facility in north central Oregon that could become one of the largest carbon-free projects in the state.

www.newsdata.com

 

[Gr8bawana]

This is a solar array that sits between Las Vegas and Pahrump in Nye county.


This is a pic of the Gemini solar array just north of Las Vegas.
As you can see both of these were built in the desert where there wasn't much vegetation to begin with but in both cases what little there was has been left in tact. So not all solar array fields have the ground completely cleared of everything.

 

[nrpate05]

Looks like the BLM released the final Western Solar Plan at the end of last week. I haven't read through it, but it appears the agency is expanding how much land is available for solar development to ~32 million acres (up from around 22 million in the draft). Open lands are those that are within 15 miles planned or existing transmission corridor (up from 10 in the draft) or on previously disturbed lands so long as they don't fall within the exclusion criteria. I'm hoping that by expanding available land that the BLM can be more selective in choosing 'low conservation value' land for solar projects. I'm hoping they did a good job with the exclusion criteria - at first glance it looks like they will address migration habitat more broadly.

https://eplanning.blm.gov/eplanning-ui/project/2022371/570

 

[SAJ-99]

I wasn't sure which thread to post this on, but I will place it here.

The TLDR or paywall-blocked-me version is below. Needless to say, this tech will use a MASSIVE amount of energy. I'm not even sure how I feel about the whole thing given AI has mostly been a PITA up to this point, for me at least. I also struggle with how in the hell it needs that much power. But I digress. I am pretty sure OpenAI will IPO and the price will demonstrate they can pay for some of it, but the where in the hell do you put 5 nuclear reactors? or 1 for that matter.

OpenAI has pitched the Biden administration on the need for massive data centers that could each use as much power as entire cities, framing the unprecedented expansion as necessary to develop more advanced artificial intelligence models and compete with China.

Following a recent meeting at the White House, which was attended by OpenAI Chief Executive Officer Sam Altman and other tech leaders, the startup shared a document with government officials outlining the economic and national security benefits of building 5 gigawatt data centers in various US states, based on an analysis the company engaged with outside experts on. To put that in context, 5 GW is roughly the equivalent of five nuclear reactors, or enough to power almost 3 million homes.

OpenAI Pitched White House on Unprecedented Data Center Buildout

OpenAI has pitched the Biden administration on the need for massive data centers that could each use as much power as entire cities, framing the unprecedented expansion as necessary to develop more advanced artificial intelligence models and compete with China.

www.bloomberg.com

 

[Bonasababy]

I think that is why I end up most liking candidates that are not extreme left or right. The closer they are to the middle of the spectrum, they higher likelihood they support the sportsman's ideology.

Or have a hope of at least listening to us. Those stuck in extremes have p poor listening skills, unless it's something that justifies their existing bias.

 

[Bonasababy]

I wasn't sure which thread to post this on, but I will place it here.

The TLDR or paywall-blocked-me version is below. Needless to say, this tech will use a MASSIVE amount of energy. I'm not even sure how I feel about the whole thing given AI has mostly been a PITA up to this point, for me at least. I also struggle with how in the hell it needs that much power. But I digress. I am pretty sure OpenAI will IPO and the price will demonstrate they can pay for some of it, but the where in the hell do you put 5 nuclear reactors? or 1 for that matter.

OpenAI has pitched the Biden administration on the need for massive data centers that could each use as much power as entire cities, framing the unprecedented expansion as necessary to develop more advanced artificial intelligence models and compete with China.

Following a recent meeting at the White House, which was attended by OpenAI Chief Executive Officer Sam Altman and other tech leaders, the startup shared a document with government officials outlining the economic and national security benefits of building 5 gigawatt data centers in various US states, based on an analysis the company engaged with outside experts on. To put that in context, 5 GW is roughly the equivalent of five nuclear reactors, or enough to power almost 3 million homes.

OpenAI Pitched White House on Unprecedented Data Center Buildout

OpenAI has pitched the Biden administration on the need for massive data centers that could each use as much power as entire cities, framing the unprecedented expansion as necessary to develop more advanced artificial intelligence models and compete with China.

www.bloomberg.com

Can only speak for my local area, but there's been a dramatic shift on an analogous (in my mind) subject--crypto mining--lately.

Huge support--new jobs, more money carried the day with locals for some time.

Then as they realize all the associated problems--noise, HUGE power consumption needs, blackout concerns, environmental concerns related to noise control needs--and more--even folks that typically are all for new tech and business are starting to say no thanks. Just read another large operation planned for a small community in my state has had their plug pulled.

 

[peterk1234]

This is a solar array that sits between Las Vegas and Pahrump in Nye county.
View attachment 338153

This is a pic of the Gemini solar array just north of Las Vegas.
As you can see both of these were built in the desert where there wasn't much vegetation to begin with but in both cases what little there was has been left in tact. So not all solar array fields have the ground completely cleared of everything.

View attachment 338154

I find this to be absolutely brutal. I have nothing factual or scientific. Just my gut. Everything has a cause and effect. I guess time will tell. But our track record when it comes to low impact is not great.


Open usable land that can be equally shared by humans plants, insects and wildlife is scarce. What is left should be reasonably protected. Not doing so will be very costly in the long run.

 

[SAJ-99]

Can only speak for my local area, but there's been a dramatic shift on an analogous (in my mind) subject--crypto mining--lately.

Huge support--new jobs, more money carried the day with locals for some time.

Then as they realize all the associated problems--noise, HUGE power consumption needs, blackout concerns, environmental concerns related to noise control needs--and more--even folks that typically are all for new tech and business are starting to say no thanks. Just read another large operation planned for a small community in my state has had their plug pulled.

That user base is absolutely a problem. How did the plug get pulled? It seems that a legit business should be allowed to operate, I guess until they cause a blackout, lol. I think there was a Bitcoin miner here in WA that located close to power source (a dam). I just struggle with how much demand things like crypto and AI will use given meeting even baseline current consumption is hard. Should they pay more? At least big AI players are trying to meet net-zero goals by building solar or even putting servers underground (and underwater apparently). The land use required to meet some of these projections would be incredible.

 

[ismith]

Those guys wearing red ties greenlighted that. Thats the point. It is a good comparison - development is development to wildlife. Worrying about public land only - and negelecting a lot of superior habitat is on private land.

No, it's 2% public land due to how Texas came into being, not because of people wearing red ties.