MTNTOUGH - Use promo code RANDY for 30 days free

Soft Hands Steve at it again.

On the topic of WSA vs capital W etc...I encourage people to not get too caught up in how we package land protections, but rather look at the protections themselves. When I worked in the wilderness/conservation community, we were discussing management of LWCs amongst folks from various non profits. To make a long story short, folks from one group (maybe TRCP?) felt we could get the protection we wanted if it were packaged as a Backcountry Recreation area, or some title like that. Whereas we wouldn't get any of those same exact protections on the same piece of ground if the word wilderness were anywhere in the title of the "package" so to speak.

I told everyone I could care less what the damn thing was packaged as, the protections were a lot more important than the name. But therein lies the rub. These wilderness non profits want to fund raise on wilderness victories. It was actually more important to some that wilderness be in the title.

I'll just come out and say it, there were, and maybe still are folks that are willing to take a net loss on meaningful protections on wilderness lands as a whole in order to try and gain the title of capital W wilderness on some smaller number of acres than what was lost. Especially in Wyoming, where we haven't had a designation in 30 plus years.

They'll claim victory with the designation, and most will be blissfully ignorant to the fact that we had a net loss of wilderness type protections rather than any sort of gain.

Granted, one could argue that a capital W is much harder to undo and develop than a WSA, and that it's worth it to get the designation because of that. This may be true...WSAs weren't meant to be studied forever. They were meant to be designated or released after a period of study.
But honestly, all I care about is the land protections. I'd be tickled pink if we studied the existing WSAs for the rest of eternity and never designated another capital W. It seems wrong on every level, but I feel, perhaps incorrectly, that that would be the best possible scenario to keep as many wilderness acres undeveloped as possible.

Pretty nuanced topic if you go down the rabbit hole...
 
Didn't the FS and BLM (inclusive of public input) conclude studies that supported the reasoning to remove the extremely overdue wilderness study areas for the three focused areas?

Some people may not be fond of Daines though it's in his wheelhouse to involve congressional action, @Ben Lamb . I agree some of the expressions shared are the typical Red/Blue political blunderbuss fanfare content however, the portion I agree with Daines is this is not the decision for public groups... This is for Congress as it relates to the purpose behind WSA's. It is Congress responsibility and that equates to Daines.

This is where The Nature Conservancy studies of thinning support a valued ability to address crown fires from lightning, etc. Fires still happen though the extent along with the flora/fauna advancement due to proper thinning has been much better than overgrowth of untouchable forests. I'll attach their study though unable on my phone, ATM.

This is where I'm not following your position. I'm merely discussing not arguing. Been good share of info thus far.

WSA's that have concluded their study... Time for Congress to do their job, long overdue.
 
I should say, everything I talked about was pretty Wyoming centric. I think all but like 3 of our WSAs are BLM, and a lot of those are not in forested areas. So fire management isn't something I've thought about as much as I should when it relates to WSAs elsewhere.

I'll admit, there may be WSAs where the land would be better served with active management than essentially preservation.
 
Didn't the FS and BLM (inclusive of public input) conclude studies that supported the reasoning to remove the extremely overdue wilderness study areas for the three focused areas?

Great point! These were studied and due to political machinations at the end of the Reagan presidencies, the bill that would have solved this issue once and for all was pocket vetoed by President Reagan in favor of Ron Marlenee's attempt to grab a senate seat.

Since then, groups have repeatedly tried to bring the issue back up, but Marlenee, Rheberg, Zinke, Daines, et al have stopped any bill except for the RMF Heritage Act dead in it's track. During the last 30 years, conditions have changed in those WMA's, and simply relying on the data that's wildly outdated now isn't really proper. New studies could help inform a thoughtful decision making process, but politicians aren't really about thoughtful decisions (regardless of the animal after their name ;) ).
Some people may not be fond of Daines though it's in his wheelhouse to involve congressional action, @Ben Lamb . I agree some of the expressions shared are the typical Red/Blue political blunderbuss fanfare content however, the portion I agree with Daines is this is not the decision for public groups... This is for Congress as it relates to the purpose behind WSA's. It is Congress responsibility and that equates to Daines.
I disagree that local people involved shouldn't have any say in how public lands are managed. Daines is misrepresenting the issue in order to give top-down edicts rather than listen to his constituencies on the issue.

This is where The Nature Conservancy studies of thinning support a valued ability to address crown fires from lightning, etc. Fires still happen though the extent along with the flora/fauna advancement due to proper thinning has been much better than overgrowth of untouchable forests. I'll attach their study though unable on my phone, ATM.
Post them up, would love to read them!

This is where I'm not following your position. I'm merely discussing not arguing. Been good share of info thus far.

No worries my friend, happy to disagree with you on this, and I don't ever feel like it's acrimonious. :)
 
I did talk to a friend who lives on the Gates of the Mountains area. They are no strangers to wildfire as they have owned land there for 40+ years. Most of those they see lightning strikes and then fires. So maybe 85% are caused by man; as I recall, most in CA were arson.
 
Would you please be more specific in explaining why more open roads and ATV tails are needed there.

Thank you
Because shooting elk in the mountains usually makes my feet and legs and back hurt. This year I would like to drive a side by side right up to a nice 6x6, and Steve Daines is boldly paving the way for me.
 
That is interesting. In many Rocky Mountain forests the O horizon is only a couple of inches deep at best, and sites will not produce when sterilized down to mineral. Most are not wet enough to support aspen/willow systems, aside from specific, seasonally inundated landforms. I spent a summer doing post fire soil monitoring on the Helena NF in about 2008; hydrophobicity, soil OM, infiltration, stem counts, etc.. As of a couple of years ago, driving through some of those areas it looks pretty close to the same as it did in 2008. Some recovering nicely, just depends.

That's not to say fire, wild or prescribed, isn't useful for realizing habitat heterogeneity and invigorating encroached aspen. Just that high intensity across broad swathes of historically suppressed forest is an ecological problem in Rocky Mountain systems. There are some here who could do a much better job describing the situation than me.
Even in our aspen systems where the organic horizon is shallow, it is nearly impossible to burn hot enough to kill the roots and thus post-fire aspen suckering is common as well as wind-blown aspen/willow seeds in exposed mineral soil.
 
No worries my friend, happy to disagree with you on this, and I don't ever feel like it's acrimonious. :)
Cheers, Ben - and back at'cha.

The specific Nature Conservancy study referenced:


WSA's are long overdue and in need of defined status. It's a hot potato and likely political, (as I shared in another thread Roosevelt's opined content of Boss Party politics). I've no doubt the same setting is within Daines' camp as opposing camps. Our system is operated by lobbyists over that of the people. Unfortunate... I'm personally supportive for increasing the Wilderness Act footprint in MT, and elsewhere. I understand organization intent such as, Wild Montana, Sierra Club, and Montana Wildlife Foundation - their position is to not give an inch for a mile will be taken... However, I am of the opinion, we will not find objective studies that will objectively determine WSA designation to one side or the other. It's a subjective world. The most objective studies will be subjectively interpreted. I would rather bring a balanced set of private and public groups together and define based on a simple process of a 70/30 for the WSA's in Montana. Instead of fighting for all one way or the other. It needs a leader to remove the angst and simplify the basis for the "panel" to work. I believe this is necessary for all WSA's though keeping with Montana, this is my opinion. :)
 
Cheers, Ben - and back at'cha.

The specific Nature Conservancy study referenced:


WSA's are long overdue and in need of defined status. It's a hot potato and likely political, (as I shared in another thread Roosevelt's opined content of Boss Party politics). I've no doubt the same setting is within Daines' camp as opposing camps. Our system is operated by lobbyists over that of the people. Unfortunate... I'm personally supportive for increasing the Wilderness Act footprint in MT, and elsewhere. I understand organization intent such as, Wild Montana, Sierra Club, and Montana Wildlife Foundation - their position is to not give an inch for a mile will be taken... However, I am of the opinion, we will not find objective studies that will objectively determine WSA designation to one side or the other. It's a subjective world. The most objective studies will be subjectively interpreted. I would rather bring a balanced set of private and public groups together and define based on a simple process of a 70/30 for the WSA's in Montana. Instead of fighting for all one way or the other. It needs a leader to remove the angst and simplify the basis for the "panel" to work. I believe this is necessary for all WSA's though keeping with Montana, this is my opinion. :)
That's a very interesting study, and seems very well done (from a non-forest person but long time researcher). So, since thinning has the advantages delineated in this study, as well as in the prevention of crown fires previously mentioned, who is against it and why? Are there competing studies which show deleterious effects from thinning?
 
In Alaska, high intensity fires are best to remove the thick organic horizon and expose mineral soil in black spruce leading to a shift from black spruce to aspen/willow systems. It is nearly impossible to burn hot and deep such that aspen does not sucker and
willow does not sprout post-fire.
Black spruce grow in poorly drained soils, often with underlying permafrost that traps water from going deeper into the soil.
"Alaskan black spruce" https://www.fs.fed.us/database/feis/fire_regimes/AK_black_spruce/all.html
The problem with Montana forests is lack of available water for regeneration in the hot dry summer months in most years. Surface soil temperatures can get up to 180 degrees on south facing slopes and cook the seedlings. Sites like that will remain treeless for many years to come and not exactly a bad thing for ungulates.
 
Last edited:
Here's a south facing slope that burned hot in the 2000 Bitterroot fires. It's a wet site yet only shrubs and grass are growing back. Across the creek on the north facing side, thick stands of lodgepole are growing back. Not a wilderness area but is roadless, so no logging has taken place. Three rams were feeding here and one is skylined in this pic. Good winter range for deer and elk too.

20220710_091214.jpg
 
Because shooting elk in the mountains usually makes my feet and legs and back hurt. This year I would like to drive a side by side right up to a nice 6x6, and Steve Daines is boldly paving the way for me.
Well, at least you are honest. Sounds you are past the point where you can hunt and do not care about the negative consequences to land and wildlife when more access is granted to vehicles. It is a downhill rapid slide.

Also seems so unrealistic to think once vehicle access is allowed that wildlife like a nice 6x6 bull elk will be just waiting for you step out and shoot him.
 
Well, at least you are honest. Sounds you are past the point where you can hunt and do not care about the negative consequences to land and wildlife when more access is granted to vehicles. It is a downhill rapid slide.

Also seems so unrealistic to think once vehicle access is allowed that wildlife like a nice 6x6 bull elk will be just waiting for you step out and shoot him.
Yes, at the ripe old age of 28 I am past the point where I can hunt. Maybe some day I’ll shoot a bull elk despite my limitations. My sense of humor may be a little too dry for some people I guess.
 


I can't wait to get away from Montana, leave it for all the scavengers.
 
Last edited:


I can't wait to leave Montana, leave it for all the scavengers.
It’s really disheartening to see Daines trying to essentially swap 300k acres for 80k acres that’s already had a substantial chunk of the originally desired wilderness carved out for snowmobiles and mountain bikes.

I’ve read the BLM study literature on, and spent time in both the Powell County WSA’s. Sure, they might not qualify as big-W wilderness strictly per the intent of the act, but I damn sure want to see them remain roadless. When he says he wants to “improve access” I hear “more side by sides.”
 
Kenetrek Boots

Forum statistics

Threads
113,637
Messages
2,027,797
Members
36,260
Latest member
BirdDawg
Back
Top