Social security by the numbers

Gulf of America said:
Agreed. Pretending that universal healthcare isn’t part of the equation just isn’t a good faith argument.

But it’s impossible to separate it from the statistics Wyo mentioned. In a socialized system, there’s far more incentive to promote good health and lower the costs that everyone is sharing, vs a capitalist healthcare system hugely profiting off America’s poor health.
Click to expand...

I was going to post that health insurers are in a cost plus business. Any increase in payouts, is covered with a rate adjustment. While denying a claim, helps the bottom line, they have an open ended option, to make certain they remain profitable.
 
WyoCoalMiner said:
He knows that but he like so many others want to ignore the 42.7% elephant in the room. He wants to believe that if we just had single payer, gov funded healthcare then all would be great. Similar to what we heard when the ACA was rolled out. The underlying problem is what the average US citizen eats. If this isn't corrected the rest is all just window dressing. IMO.
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The real problem is the highly likely prospect of a decline in life expectancy given Trump's actions including who he has put in charge.

We saw this during the Covid years when he was president. His refusal to accept something could go wrong when he was president at first--even as people were dying by the thousands from it. Then his pivot to yes it's a problem but it's not that bad, then his weird support for treatments that had no basis for effectiveness in any science. Much more than incompetence--it was a classic behavior by a person who can't admit anything he is in charge of isn't the best it's ever been. It all led to the US having an very high rate of death from Covid when compared to most other developed countries.

Now look where we stand. He put an anti-vaccine guy in charge of the nations health agency! He's cutting federal funding for all kinds of services that support health and reduce death rates. He's cutting funding for research into cures and treatments for deadly diseases.

Look at things like the measles outbreak in Texas. MEASLES! We knew how to prevent this folks. It's not a mystery there are no questions--people are choosing not to vaccinate is the issue. Trump and his supporters are the most anti-science, anti-vaccine, anti health education leadership team we have ever had.

New drugs are dramatically helping diet and weight issues--assuming Trump doesn't do something to mess that up, like stopping any pressure to reduce their prices in this country where they cost an amazing amount more than the cost to produce or even make a reasonable profit on.

Look at the economy--the decline is starting--when people have less money they do not want to go to the doctor!

Bottom line is--if something doesn't change we have every reason to expect life expectancy to decline for the near future at least.
 
Bonasababy said:
Bottom line is--if something doesn't change we have every reason to expect life expectancy to decline for the near future at least.
Click to expand...

I predict the opposite.

As you mentioned, GLP-1’s and similar drugs are likely to lead towards a longer life expectancy. It is unlikely that measles affects life expectancy to any measurable degree.

*I also predict that political posts are going to get this thread 86’d. It’s an interesting discussion that I hope continues, but that won’t happen without a little more self-control.
 
WyoCoalMiner said:
I dont disagree with the stupidity of the US insurance system. However, what a person consumes has a far greater influence on life expectancy and healthcare costs than the manner in which we pay for healthcare. Work on that and the rest will seem like a minor annoyance, IMO.
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Wrong. Just wrong.

What we have seen with health insurance, we are now seeing with housing insurance. It will get much, much worse.
 
BrentD said:
Wrong. Just wrong.

What we have seen with health insurance, we are now seeing with housing insurance. It will get much, much worse.
Click to expand...
Sorry Brent, even this West Coast liberal disagrees. Living healthy is way bigger influence. You have entire regions that live longer than us that don't have any appreciable health care system at all.
 
Bonasababy said:
The real problem is the highly likely prospect of a decline in life expectancy given Trump's actions including who he has put in charge.
Click to expand...

Bonasababy said:
We saw this during the Covid years when he was president. His refusal to accept something could go wrong when he was president at first--even as people were dying by the thousands from it. Then his pivot to yes it's a problem but it's not that bad, then his weird support for treatments that had no basis for effectiveness in any science. Much more than incompetence--it was a classic behavior by a person who can't admit anything he is in charge of isn't the best it's ever been. It all led to the US having an very high rate of death from Covid when compared to most other developed countries.
Click to expand...
US high Covid mortality rate had far more to due with our high obesity rates than Trumps bleach or ivermectin thoughts. When he was president what were the other alternatives? Ventilators? The vax came out after he was out of office. By your logic low vax rates should be Bidens fault.
Bonasababy said:
Look at things like the measles outbreak in Texas. MEASLES! We knew how to prevent this folks. It's not a mystery there are no questions--people are choosing not to vaccinate is the issue. Trump and his supporters are the most anti-science, anti-vaccine, anti health education leadership team we have ever had.
Click to expand...
The measles outbreak in TX has everything to do with a small Mennonite community. Doubt they are looking to RFK for healthcare advice.
Bonasababy said:
New drugs are dramatically helping diet and weight issues--assuming Trump doesn't do something to mess that up, like stopping any pressure to reduce their prices in this country where they cost an amazing amount more than the cost to produce or even make a reasonable profit on.
Click to expand...
Once again the pharm business will save us from ourselves. We can continue to FAFO just take this once weekly shot. I have my doubts.
 
WyoCoalMiner said:
US high Covid mortality rate had far more to due with our high obesity rates than Trumps bleach or ivermectin thoughts. When he was president what were the other alternatives? Ventilators? The vax came out after he was out of office. By your logic low vax rates should be Bidens fault.
Click to expand...

Come on, we all know which side of the political spectrum is most resistant to getting vaccinated. RFK, proves it is partially bipartisan.

I'm just grateful that getting dewormer for my horses has finally become pretty easy.
 
406dn said:
Come on, we all know which side of the political spectrum is most resistant to getting vaccinated. RFK, proves it is partially bipartisan.
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I beleive you are correct. On average R's would be less likely to get a Covid vax. However, Trump was never anti covid vax. Project Warp Speed started under his administration. Don't recall him having a negative opinion of any vax. Does R vs. D have any bearing on other vax's? Got no idea and dont really care to look it up.
 
Irrelevant said:
Sorry Brent, even this West Coast liberal disagrees. Living healthy is way bigger influence. You have entire regions that live longer than us that don't have any appreciable health care system at all.
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This is ignoring the reality though, at least were cost is concerned. It's not about how you as an individual receive health care and take care of yourself. It's about how the population overall does. As you can be the healthiest person in the world but if the place you live has health declining the money you pay goes up.

This is this the real problem with the huge change in leadership. Those who support it think only of themselves, and not how the welfare of others affects them.

We all do better in our pocketbooks if we all do better. We do not do better if it's only us who are healthy and the health of others is declining.
 
WyoCoalMiner said:
I beleive you are correct. On average R's would be less likely to get a Covid vax. However, Trump was never anti covid vax. Project Warp Speed started under his administration. Don't recall him having a negative opinion of any vax. Does R vs. D have any bearing on other vax's? Got no idea and dont really care to look it up.
Click to expand...
Huh?

Ignoring what he did in his first time, we have this going on RIGHT NOW.

www.whitehouse.gov

Fact Sheet: President Donald J. Trump Prohibits Federal Funding for COVID-19 Vaccine Mandates in Schools

PROHIBITING COVID-19 VACCINE MANDATES IN SCHOOLS: Today, President Donald J. Trump signed an Executive Order to prohibit federal funding for COVID-19
www.whitehouse.gov

www.whitehouse.gov

Fact Sheet: President Donald J. Trump Reinstates Service Members Discharged for Refusing the COVID Vaccine

RESINSTATING THE UNJUSTLY DISCHARGED: Today, President Donald J. Trump signed an Executive Order to reinstate service members who were dismissed for
www.whitehouse.gov

www.nytimes.com

Trump Will Withhold Money From Schools That Require Covid Vaccines

An estimated 15 colleges still required Covid vaccines for students as of late last year. No states require K-12 students to get the shots.
www.nytimes.com www.nytimes.com

This is a good paper on his impact too FWIW.


Abstract​

Donald Trump is the first U.S. President to be on the record as having anti-vaccination attitudes. Given his enormous reach and influence, it is worthwhile examining the extent to which allegiance to Trump is associated with the public's perceptions of vaccine safety and efficacy. In both Study 1 (N = 518) and Study 2 (N = 316), Trump voters were significantly more concerned about vaccines than other Americans. This tendency was reduced to non-significance after controlling for conspiracist ideation (i.e., general willingness to believe conspiracy theories) and, to a lesser degree, political conservatism. In Study 2, participants were later exposed to real Trump tweets that either focused on his anti-vaccination views, or focused on golf (the control condition). Compared to when the same respondents were sampled a week earlier, there was a significant increase in vaccine concern, but only among Trump voters who were exposed to the anti-vaccination tweets. The effects were exclusively negative: there was no evidence that anti-vaccination Trump tweets polarized liberal voters into becoming more pro-vaccination. In line with the social identity model of leadership, Study 2 indicates that some leaders do not simply represent the attitudes and opinions of the group, but can also change group members' opinions.
 
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Bonasababy said:
This is ignoring the reality though, at least were cost is concerned. It's not about how you as an individual receive health care and take care of yourself. It's about how the population overall does. As you can be the healthiest person in the world but if the place you live has health declining the money you pay goes up.

This is this the real problem with the huge change in leadership. Those who support it think only of themselves, and not how the welfare of others affects them.

We all do better in our pocketbooks if we all do better. We do not do better if it's only us who are healthy and the health of others is declining.
Click to expand...
Dude stop. My point was that life expectancy is more closely related to lifestyle than a particular style of healthcare system.

If America got single payer tomorrow we're still fat as shit.

That doesn't mean I wouldn't support a socialized medical, it just means I don't hang everything on it.
 
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