Social security by the numbers

[BrentD]

Not SS. Different pool of money. And there are limitations on that. Funny part is most immigrants with a job are paying SS taxes that they will never receive the benefit of.

Shhh!!! Don't tell anyone about the free lunch...

 

[SAJ-99]

I think it almost has to be discussed in that manner. It’s currently managed like insurance and treated like retirement by the users, eventually that’s not going to play out

Agree. But because most people incorrectly think of it as a retirement plan when it isn’t, they are part of the problem in turning it into retirement. Look at 401ks. Law changes over the last couple of decades include auto enrolling members, then auto investing them in a default investment (target date funds now) because they sat in cash, then when they leave the job they just liquidate the thing, pay the penalty and yolo a trip to Europe or something. It is fine to think these people will have to endure the consequences of their choices but not realistic when “these people” is 60% of the population.

 

[BrentD]

Suuuuure it does.

It has to. You sound skeptical. How could it not?

 

[TN2shot07]

Agree. But because most people incorrectly think of it as a retirement plan when it isn’t, they are part of the problem in turning it into retirement. Look at 401ks. Law changes over the last couple of decades include auto enrolling members, then auto investing them in a default investment (target date funds now) because they sat in cash, then when they leave the job they just liquidate the thing, pay the penalty and yolo a trip to Europe or something. It is fine to think these people will have to endure the consequences of their choices but not realistic when “these people” is 60% of the population.

You are correct. That’s why I mentioned early on that something would have to be done to remove access to that money until retirement. I hate the idea of control but I don’t know how else you protect people from themselves. Maybe at least lockdown the employer contribution??

 

[Forkyfinder]

SS was a good idea in the begining. Like everything gov't gets involved in it has been abused. I wish I could opt out I doubt I will ever see a cent form it. I have no problem with taxes to take care of America but so much money is wasted by both sides of the aisle. It is odd to me how people want to pay more in taxes, I know there are people on here that pay a lot more in taxes than I do. But I get mad when people who do not pay hardly anything in are telling me about thier big refund check and I am still having to pay more. It is like being punished for working hard and trying to make something of your self and to give your family a good life.

How much you get back isnt always a product of how much you pay, its a product of the extra you paid. In other words - its your with holding that matters.

I hear folks, in contracting especially, complaining about "paying in" when other people get a refund - but its a single factor analysis that ignores the realities and complexities of it.

I paid a lot - and i also got a big refund, mostly from poor financial planning and not working to minimize my with holding.

 

[SAJ-99]

It has to. You sound skeptical. How could it not?

Unless I misunderstand what the P meant. You mean the individual person? Why am I skeptical? Because that is not the way stuff has worked the last 20years for sure, and probably much longer. If there is a problem, the Government cuts people a check. Examples, 2008-09 GFC, Florida hurricanes, NC floods, Cali fires, the list goes on and is too long to type. The Government is the insurer of last resort and is too frequently cutting checks to mitigate any pain. Not sure why SS would be any different. We continue to build in flood-prone and fire-prone areas while the number of multi-Billion events is increasing.

It sure seems like we are speeding toward a Marie Antoinette moment. Estimates for pre-revolutionary France put the wealth distribution at about 90% of wealth held by the top 10% (driven by royalty, obviously, 60% by top 1%). America is moving close to 70% of wealth held by the top 10% (30% by top 1%). France didn't have social media, so it took a while for them to get really angry and organized.

You are correct. That’s why I mentioned early on that something would have to be done to remove access to that money until retirement. I hate the idea of control but I don’t know how else you protect people from themselves. Maybe at least lockdown the employer contribution??

Agree. The solution on the economic/money is pretty easy, but getting people to do the right thing is hard.

The good news for Big Fin and Nameless Range is SS is too big to fail. About 1 in 5 Americans is drawing from the system. Bad news is about 90% of Americans complain about it.

 

[Bonasababy]

Source?

How Does U.S. Life Expectancy Compare to Other Countries? | KFF

This chart collection examines how life expectancy in the U.S. compares to that of other similarly large and wealthy countries. Between 2019 and 2022, the U.S. experienced a sharper decline and a slower rebound in life expectancy than peer countries, on average, due to increased mortality and...

www.kff.org

Between 2019 and 2022, the U.S. experienced a sharper decline and a slower rebound in life expectancy than peer countries, on average, due to increased mortality and premature death rates in the U.S. from the COVID-19 pandemic. Updated life expectancy estimates in this chart collection show that in 2023, life expectancy in the U.S. returned to pre-pandemic levels, but remains lower than that of comparable countries.

Among peer countries, the U.S. has the lowest life expectancy at birth for both women and men.​

The life expectancy gap between men and women is wider in the U.S. than in comparable countries.​

The disparity in life expectancy between the U.S. and peer countries persists at older ages.​

The U.S. has the lowest life expectancy among large, wealthy countries while outspending its peers on healthcare​

 

[Bonasababy]

IMO its one issue that is clearly not partisan in nature, political yes but there is no way to blame one more than the other all share blame for where you are today. Might try and dive in more tonight after I have the time but the solutions have been there for decades--what hasn't been there at all is the real will to implement any of them (IMO it takes multiple strategies more to spread the pain equally than resolving the issue).

 

[406dn]

The loss of defined pensions is only beginning to bear the bitter fruit, that is sure to come.

I was fortunate to work for a company that had a defined pension, a separate savings plan with a 7% on top of your first 6% contribution, and retiree health care. It is not easy to find a better situation to set up a good retirement than that.

Yet, more than a few employees have found themselves essentially broke after been retired for a while. We had several options for receiving the defined pension. That included several annuity options and a lump sum. Most people, myself included, took the lump sum. It then falls entirely on the employee (and, perhaps a financial advisor) to steward that nest egg.

You'd be surprised at how many thought they could day trade their way into vast wealth. I don't know of anyone who has succeeded at that, but I know a good number that lost most of their nest egg. Others build a big dream home, and find themselves house rich and cash poor.

It is a fact that most people are not very good managing money for a longer term. If math isn't a strong suit, it is unlikely you can realize the consequences of your spending.

What I like about SS is that it builds a floor that limits how far you will fall. Your retirement lifestyle will be very meager, if all you have is the SS payment, each month. I've watched enough coworkers to know that if there was no SS, they would have been left old and broke. That is not a great place to be.

 

[Nick87]

How Does U.S. Life Expectancy Compare to Other Countries? | KFF

This chart collection examines how life expectancy in the U.S. compares to that of other similarly large and wealthy countries. Between 2019 and 2022, the U.S. experienced a sharper decline and a slower rebound in life expectancy than peer countries, on average, due to increased mortality and...

www.kff.org

Between 2019 and 2022, the U.S. experienced a sharper decline and a slower rebound in life expectancy than peer countries, on average, due to increased mortality and premature death rates in the U.S. from the COVID-19 pandemic. Updated life expectancy estimates in this chart collection show that in 2023, life expectancy in the U.S. returned to pre-pandemic levels, but remains lower than that of comparable countries.
View attachment 362660

Among peer countries, the U.S. has the lowest life expectancy at birth for both women and men.​

The life expectancy gap between men and women is wider in the U.S. than in comparable countries.​

The disparity in life expectancy between the U.S. and peer countries persists at older ages.​

View attachment 362661

The U.S. has the lowest life expectancy among large, wealthy countries while outspending its peers on healthcare​

View attachment 362662

So a 3 year dip?

 

[cgasner1]

So a 3 year dip?

That was the boomer remover

 

[LopeHunter]

I guarantee he pays far more into the Federal government than most.
The answer shouldn't be make the rich pay more. The answer should be make those who are capable of working, work and be responsible for themselves.

His average Federal tax rate as a billionaire is less than mine. As is the case when I am compared to Warren Buffett. That indicates a regressive tax system. Regressive implies the more the you make, the less you pay per $1 of income.

Add up the SS tax paid, home property tax, sales tax and Federal personal income tax then divide by personal income for the year. Most of my personal income is not at long-term gain rates.

Should you pay more per $1 than me? Why should I pay more than you? Should I pay more than Bezos? This is not even asking someone to pay more overall per $1 earned. Just pay the same rate per $1 including payroll, property, sales and income taxes.

Every community has people that do not pull their weight when healthy. Some are lazy. Some are addicts. Some are second graders, 90 year olds or significantly disabled.

The lazy which are poor are not living a great life compared to most of us in America. They are fortunate to be in America where even the poor have access to safety nets such as to get free emergency medical services at hospitals. That standard of living sucks, though.

 

[Bonasababy]

Most is an huge understatement.


Bezos moved to FL to avoid paying the WA state cap gains tax. Elon to TX to avoid CA. So they used the talent and infrastructure of the region to build the business, but never paid the taxes that help fund the basic stuff. I'm not a huge fan of taxes on unrealized gains, but when I see stuff like this I consider shifting that view. The rich can do a lot of things to avoid taxes. The super rich can do a lot more. The super super rich buy elections.

To help answer you question on "why". I can only point you to the fact that it is an insurance program, not a saving/retirement account. Compare it to other forms of insurance and it might make more sense. Insurance programs are never structured to make you net positive. Note, if you are it is probably insurance fraud- but not legal advice.

If you have paid in 200k at 38, I think you are doing fine. But if you think it would have make a huge difference in you life up to this point, then SS is probably a benefit to you.

I think a lot of people don't think beyond their own interests...and don't consider their own future.

I'm disciplined enough that I could see doing better if I invested the money contributed over the years.

But I know that's not the way it works. It's called supplemental for a reason. We all share in providing it. We all end up paying for people who don't save enough to retire if it's not there for others. We may not want to but there's no choice in a civilized society....of course it can be argued we are rapidly moving away from civilized under the current regime

 

[BuzzH]

So a 3 year dip?

The 3 year dip can be explained, but what cant be is that Canadians for example live 3 years longer than U.S. Citizens and pay about half in health spending.

Nobody likes talking about that kind of stuff, the 3 year dip is the shiny thing.

 

[BrentD]

The 3 year dip can be explained, but what cant be is that Canadians for example live 3 years longer than U.S. Citizens and pay about half in health spending.

Nobody likes talking about that kind of stuff, the 3 year dip is the shiny thing.

The three year dip may be news, but this sort of thing about the US health care system is very old news. We have the some of the worst health care statistics of any 1st world country for the highest price, and we brag about it. Beats me. It is a subject that rubs me raw and has for most of my life.

 

[Forkyfinder]

The three year dip may be news, but this sort of thing about the US health care system is very old news. We have the some of the worst health care statistics of any 1st world country for the highest price, and we brag about it. Beats me. It is a subject that rubs me raw and has for most of my life.

Does it also come down to some of the poor choices we make as americans?

High consumption of high calorie and low nutrient meals, nicotine, alcohol.... just to name a few things that might move the needle.

 

[BuzzH]

The three year dip may be news, but this sort of thing about the US health care system is very old news. We have the some of the worst health care statistics of any 1st world country for the highest price, and we brag about it. Beats me. It is a subject that rubs me raw and has for most of my life.

We're #1...in medical bankruptcy

United States 66.5%
Canada 19%
Australia 10%
United Kingdom 8.2%

 

[BrentD]

Does it also come down to some of the poor choices we make as americans?

High consumption of high calorie and low nutrient meals, nicotine, alcohol.... just to name a few things that might move the needle.

No. It comes down to our form of health insurance mostly.

 

[BuzzH]

Does it also come down to some of the poor choices we make as americans?

High consumption of high calorie and low nutrient meals, nicotine, alcohol.... just to name a few things that might move the needle.

Apparently you haven't spent much time around the good people of Canada.

 

[Forkyfinder]

Apparently you haven't spent much time around the good people of Canada.

No. It comes down to our form of health insurance mostly.

I went to fact check you guys and USA is #35 in alcohol consumption. Suprising. Not sure on the sugar/fried food score though.

I have not spent much time around canadians - but ive been to texas and ohio a few times....