Shoulder Seasons on Public Land

[Nameless Range]

I'm beginning to think RMEF is about useless on elk issues in MT.

RMEF statement from 2016. Prophetic. Emphasis added by me.


To Chairman Vermillion and FWP Commission and Director Hagener,

Please consider this letter as public comment from the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation (RMEF) relative to the proposed Shoulder Season expansions for 2016 and beyond.

RMEF supported late season cow hunts as a viable elk management tool by Montana Fish, Wildlife & Parks (FWP); hence we supported legislation to provide such to the Department of Fish Wildlife and Parks. This legislation was vetoed and in its place a “shoulder season concept” was proposed and is currently being tested by FWP in limited, selected units.

While we have previously stated we generally support the ability of FWP to use such seasons as a tool to address over population issues of elk we do not officially endorse any program for the future without first seeing the results of the pilot programs currently underway. To date we have not been provided any results from this test program.

Based on the comments we have received from our members we continue to support the concept of a late season cow elk hunt for the purpose of helping to address over population of elk in specific areas of the state, especially for those who have tried all existing options. We are concerned about the expansion of such hunts on to public land. Past history shows that extending these efforts to public lands may focus on the wrong elk; those public land elk that our members have access to. We do not support early season hunts allowing special rifle hunts during archery seasons. Since the basis for these seasons is to reduce elk numbers in some areas, we would not support harvest of bulls under these seasons.

RMEF will not get drawn into the no-win debate over established objective numbers for elk versus carrying capacity numbers for elk; a debate that has become highly political. We fully recognize the need to consider both the biological and social aspects of elk and elk population goals but in this highly partisan atmosphere there seems to be little opportunity for flexible or negotiable allowances.

As a starting point for the path forward, we would suggest a review and update of the Elk Management Plan, with representation of all stakeholders. Elk are one of Montana’s most valuable wildlife resources, both culturally and financially. It seems an updated Elk Management Plan would be prudent and hopefully provide a better forum for discussing elk objectives, in consideration of social tolerance and carrying capacity.

RMEF fully subscribes to the principles of the North American Model of Conservation and we staunchly accept and defend the principles of private property rights by American citizens. We fully support the culture of hunting and state based management. A debate over an issue like shoulder seasons will not be solved without a willingness on all sides to compromise and work together.

RMEF again restates our support for late season cow elk hunts, primarily on private lands where additional tools are needed to reduce elk populations. We feel that more pilot programs in specific private lands are needed, along with results from current pilot programs, to justify any statewide expansion of late season hunts.

Thank you for your consideration.

Respectfully submitted.

M. David Allen

 

[kansasdad]

Anyone hear RMEF's stance on this? I know they reluctantly supported shoulder seasons originally on the conditions that they were temporary and were to be held only on public land.

RMEF’s tentative support was for private land, to closely monitor results of the first season(s), and adjust accordingly any future seasons.

 

[Nameless Range]

katqanna compiled all the public comments given during the 2015 scoping process.

I encourage you all to read them. See who was right and who was dead wrong. Whose concerns were valid, and who drank the damn kool-aid. Citizen and conservation org alike. It's a good lesson and informative on how not to be made a sucker. A lot of folks knew we were getting worked.

https://www.emwh.org/issues/public%20trust/mt%20pt%20threats/FWP/2015%20Pilot%20Shoulder%20Season%20ALL%20Combined.pdf

 

[Sytes]

This is a serious topic, no doubt... however, for a bit of levity...



@Ben Lamb , Your avatar is a theme when I viewed the Google "images" for the topic, ""rmef" elk "shoulder season" statement"

Back to the topic. I'd sure like to see RMEF make a public statement opposing this though what I was told is they're involved in discussions(?). Kings of the internal dialogue could elaborate on this. I'm a proud RMEF member - wish I understood this better. I would think during this MT FWP request for public input, RMEF would make a public statement as a type of "expert witness" to aid those about to make their comments.

 

[Ben Lamb]

katqanna compiled all the public comments given during the 2015 scoping process.

I encourage you all to read them. See who was right and who was dead wrong. Whose concerns were valid, and who drank the damn kool-aid. Citizen and conservation org alike. It's a good lesson and informative on how not to be made a sucker. A lot of folks knew we were getting worked.

https://www.emwh.org/issues/public%20trust/mt%20pt%20threats/FWP/2015%20Pilot%20Shoulder%20Season%20ALL%20Combined.pdf

I reread a lot of those comments. Hindsight is always going to give you 20/20. It would be more important to review each year's comments subsequent to the pilot season, IMO.

 

[Nameless Range]

I reread a lot of those comments. Hindsight is always going to give you 20/20. It would be more important to review each year's comments subsequent to the pilot season, IMO.

I agree with this, but I think it is noteworthy that many saw it for what it was and the bad potential of what it could be, 6 years ago. This can be seen in a lot of HuntTalk threads as well.

 

[Ben Lamb]

I agree with this, but I think it is noteworthy that many saw it for what it was and the bad potential of what it could be, 6 years ago. This can be seen in a lot of HuntTalk threads as well.

Those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it. Those who know history are doomed to watch everyone else make the same stupid mistakes.

 

[BuzzH]

I reread a lot of those comments. Hindsight is always going to give you 20/20. It would be more important to review each year's comments subsequent to the pilot season, IMO.

Oh come on...everyone that had been following what was going on since the EMP was adopted knew what was going to happen. Either willfully blind or playing Rip Van Winkle after the EMP would be the only excuse for acting surprised or shocked what is about to transpire with public land elk. You didn't have to be Nostradamus or worry about hindsight being 20/20. In fact, I think you and I talked about this very thing back in 2015 and where it would end up. IIRC, you were maybe a bit more optimistic, while I was maybe a LOT more pessimistic about shoulder seasons.

Didn't take much to know where this was all going to end up, and IMO, anyone or any group that didn't realize that simply wasn't paying attention.

What I don't agree with is beating up the RMEF constantly about shoulder seasons, as if they have any more sway with the Montana Legislature, the FWP, and Commission than the average citizen. They don't and never have. Oh sure, the Legislature and Commission will be their best friends in the world when the RMEF is funding projects that don't interfere with anything else. Its pretty apparent who runs things in Montana and obviously, Montana Residents and voters are fine with it.

Its sad that RMEF was lied to, but it was to be expected. No reason for them to expect any different treatment from the Department, the Commission, and Legislature than the rest of us.

It won't change until things get much worse. The one thing I'm hopeful for is that blasting cows on public land for 6 months is moving that "much worse" needle closer to rock bottom. Rock bottom is the only thing that wakes people up enough to demand changes happen...always.

 

[BenInMT]

Ranchers + Outfitters have turned those cow elk into an additional revenue stream. Of course they want want hunters on public land to haze them back onto their ranches where they are worth $ in guided hunts/haul out fees/lodging.

Have you ever tried to hunt the FWP administered private property hunts? What a joke. Landowners give permission when they know there are no elk on the property and pull the property off the list of available permission the minute they show up so that they can sell those elk to clients. Sure you could get lucky and a herd migrates onto the property you’ve got permission on that day, but unlikely.

Pulling all grazing allotments on federal land and leaving it for wildlife would create better habitat on public land which would keep the elk there better than any shoulder season could.

 

[Ben Lamb]

@BuzzH 6 years ago I had a lot more faith in humanity. Subsequent beating have removed that.

That's growth.

 

[BuzzH]

Ranchers + Outfitters have turned those cow elk into an additional revenue stream. Of course they want want hunters on public land to haze them back onto their ranches where they are worth $ in guided hunts/haul out fees/lodging.

Have you ever tried to hunt the FWP administered private property hunts? What a joke. Landowners give permission when they know there are no elk on the property and pull the property off the list of available permission the minute they show up so that they can sell those elk to clients. Sure you could get lucky and a herd migrates onto the property you’ve got permission on that day, but unlikely.

Pulling all grazing allotments on federal land and leaving it for wildlife would create better habitat on public land which would keep the elk there better than any shoulder season could.

Agreed.

There's a downside to having a good memory and I vividly remember that the landowners "promised" they wouldn't be charging for people to hunt shoulder seasons.

The ink wasn't even dry on the paperwork to adopt the shoulder seasons (in defiance of what Sportsmen wanted) and there were adds in the news paper for shoulder season hunting the Drummond area wanting to charge for access.

Another in the long list of lies of how great shoulder seasons were going to be.

 

[BuzzH]

@BuzzH 6 years ago I had a lot more faith in humanity. Subsequent beating have removed that.

That's growth.

You have more faith than me, probably still do, I'm actually envious of that fact, seriously.

The trouble is, I watched as the FWP/Leg/Commission (all thick as thieves) adopted elk B tags in defiance of public comments. Watched as the FWP, on bent knees, ignored page 52 of the EMP. Watched as they destroyed public land elk in the 'Root via cow elk hunting, same with the Blackfoot...remember the brilliant "cow week" idea right in the middle of November?

Then along comes the shoulder seasons. I was not shocked when the public was told, "lets just try a couple areas" and immediately the "trial" included 44 areas. Just as I am not shocked that elk on public land are also now the enemy as well.

Its disturbing, but not surprising.

 

[bigsky2]

RMEF’s tentative support was for private land, to closely monitor results of the first season(s), and adjust accordingly any future seasons.

Thanks for catching my typo.

 

[RobG]

Ranchers + Outfitters have turned those cow elk into an additional revenue stream. Of course they want want hunters on public land to haze them back onto their ranches where they are worth $ in guided hunts/haul out fees/lodging.

Yeah, and the towns that will start to depend on the winter hunting traffic are going to make this thing hard to stop.

 

[SAJ-99]

Yeah, and the towns that will start to depend on the winter hunting traffic are going to make this thing hard to stop.

But hunters can make a conscious choice not to hunt during a shoulder season. I wonder how many that voice opposition actually make that choice.

 

[Sytes]

But hunters can make a conscious choice not to hunt during a shoulder season. I wonder how many that voice opposition actually make that choice.

Whaaa? Hypocrisy within the Shoulder Season opposition ranks? Say it ain't so!

 

[mtmuley]

But hunters can make a conscious choice not to hunt during a shoulder season. I wonder how many that voice opposition actually make that choice.

My choice is to only shoot one that is in my yard. Promise. mtmuley

 

[BWALKER77]

But hunters can make a conscious choice not to hunt during a shoulder season. I wonder how many that voice opposition actually make that choice.

Many hunters view the shoulder seasons as a good thing. IE more opportunity, which we all know gets many MT hunters salivating. What they don't consider is the effects those seasons have and the elk behavior they encourage makes hunting public much less fruitful.

 

[Gerald Martin]

But hunters can make a conscious choice not to hunt during a shoulder season. I wonder how many that voice opposition actually make that choice.

I have so far. My attitude is that if I can’t get it done from Sept 1-Dec.1 the elk deserve a pass until next year.

 

[SAJ-99]

I have so far. My attitude is that if I can’t get it done from Sept 1-Dec.1 the elk deserve a pass until next year.

Same here. Though anecdotal observation, it seems like it turned into a friends and family plan for game damage hunts where there doesn’t even have to be damage. The approval for public land will result in a lot of road hunting and probably calls to AAA.