Self Defense - Where to Draw the Line

[Wildabeest]

Police release surveillance video of deadly road rage incident - TownLift, Park City News

WASATCH COUNTY, Utah – Video surveillance footage, used by Wasatch County police in the investigation of Patrick Hayes' homicide, has been released as

townlift.com

Road rage turned shooting in my neighborhood recently. Since it’s the off season and any (political?) topic seems fair game, I’m interested in people’s thoughts and opinions on this.

Some mitigating factors that may factor into an assessment of self-defense vs. murder or manslaughter:

• Assailant followed the deceased past the logical turnoff for assailant’s home
• Assailant attempted to run over the deceased twice after deceased existed his vehicle
• Assailant could have easily driven away
• Assailant opened the window and shot the deceased on the passenger side of the vehicle
• Assailant did not report the incident and hid his car since it had been ID’d and buried the gun in his yard
• I didn’t know the deceased personally, but know people who did. Some have said he was a bit cocky

Obviously the locals have pretty strong opinions about it. Does this guy have a legit claim for self defense?

Edit to add:

• Witness accounts indicate the road rage was ongoing for at least 10 miles on the freeway before the final incident. Unclear who was the aggressor in that.
• Deceased drove into his own neighborhood, but then detoured down a dead end road that ended at a state park gate (likely knowing such). Speculation is that he didn’t want to drive to his house with the other person still following.
• Deceased exited his vehicle at the dead end and approached assailant’s vehicle.

 

[Dave N]

Just by your bullet points, no.

 

[Wildabeest]

For those that don’t read the article, the county has decided to only charge the assailant with obstruction of justice for burying the gun.

 

[Benfromalbuquerque]

Maybe the felony obstruction charge is something to hold the accused. When he bonds and absconds, extraditable bench warrant right away.
Both men were 61 and captured audio sounded to me like the decedent knew the other driver. Besides following a mile past where he should have turned, other driver aggressively pulled towards the decedent before then shooting and fleeing the scene.
O.J. had a more plausible alibi. This guy is toast.

 

[Wildabeest]

Maybe the felony obstruction charge is something to hold the accused. When he bonds and absconds, extraditable bench warrant right away.
Both men were 61 and captured audio sounded to me like the decedent knew the other driver. Besides following a mile past where he should have turned, other driver aggressively pulled towards the decedent before then shooting and fleeing the scene.
O.J. had a more plausible alibi. This guy is toast.

Word on the street is the DA has decided obstruction is all they think they can prove.

Unlikely that they knew each other. Deceased lived in a pretty upscale community whereas assailant lived “across the tracks” so to speak. Within a few miles of each other, but worlds apart at the same time.

 

[Benfromalbuquerque]

I listened and hear right after the other vehicle drives towards the decedent “oh yeah, oh yeah, oh yeah, want to get out? C’mon bitch boy. C’mon f*\ktard. C’mon you little $\|+.”
Objectively, would you address a complete stranger road rager like that? I would think it’d go more like “what’s your problem? Who are you and why are you following me?”

 

[Hawk Tuah]

The bigger lesson in this is to not #*^@#* with people. I think people do it so much behind a phone or computer screen with no consequences that they think nothing will happen to them in real life.

Crappy situation.

 

[grizzly_]

Did the deceased have a weapon of any sort?

 

[Wildabeest]

The bigger lesson in this is to not #*^@#* with people. I think people do it so much behind a phone or computer screen with no consequences that nothing will happen to them in real life.

Crappy situation.

Agree. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

 

[MTLabrador]

There was a fairly similar road rage turned shooting here a few years ago, except it happened in front of a gym parking lot. The shooter claimed self defense and it clearly wasn’t. He was charged and just recently convicted.

 

[Mallardsx2]

FAFO

 

[Benfromalbuquerque]

Did the deceased have a weapon of any sort?

Security video shows moments leading up to fatal road rage shooting at Jordanelle State Park

Recently obtained security video shows the final moments that led up to a fatal road rage near Jordanelle State Park that left one man dead in September.

www.fox13now.com

The deceased is alleged to have been holding a baton and knife. Shooter is alleged to have used Black Talon bullets which have been discontinued now for 25 years.

 

[elkduds]

Leaves me wondering about the legal histories of both parties. Wasn't the 1st rodeo for either of them, I'll speculate.

 

[44hunter45]

You should have called this thread "WTF Utah?"

Google "Utah gunfight" or " Utah shooting" and you will get a screen dump of craziness.

People wonder why I drive around Utah...

 

[WildWill]

Security video shows moments leading up to fatal road rage shooting at Jordanelle State Park

Recently obtained security video shows the final moments that led up to a fatal road rage near Jordanelle State Park that left one man dead in September.

www.fox13now.com

The deceased is alleged to have been holding a baton and knife. Shooter is alleged to have used Black Talon bullets which have been discontinued now for 25 years.

That's what I was wondering if the deceased had a weapon. Either way he had every opportunity to back off that's not true self defense.






Several years ago two of my neighbors ended up in a shooting match that stemmed from road rage that ended with one dead. Although a bit different as they got into a fist fight then one went home got a pistol came back shot the others car up and kicked in the front door. Guy was waiting with a 12 gauge one in the chest and that was over. Now that's self defense.

 

[Benfromalbuquerque]

That's what I was wondering if the deceased had a weapon. Either way he had every opportunity to back off that's not true self defense.






Several years ago two of my neighbors ended up in a shooting match that stemmed from road rage that ended with one dead. Although a bit different as they got into a fist fight then one went home got a pistol came back shot the others car up and kicked in the front door. Guy was waiting with a 12 gauge one in the chest and that was over. Now that's self defense.

If the Murder 2 charge comes, shooter will likely claim Castle Doctrine. Disregarding all opportunities to back off, stop following and the shooter threatening with his own vehicle really makes Castle claim weak. Being that he failed to report, render aid or even stay there and instead actively concealed evidence, the defense will throw anything to see what sticks. Stranger things have happened and we could see this dude walk free like Zimmerman.
Side note- shooter fired a .45 ACP Kimber. Might be why he hid the gun instead of any other means of disposal. Which makes this stink even more if you think about that; expensive gun, damn, Imma keep this hidden until the heat goes away.

 

[Wildabeest]

The initial charge being Obstruction is what baffles me. Even if they thought their case was a bit weak on something more, charge the higher crime and plead it down if needed.

 

[Keep on]

Security video shows moments leading up to fatal road rage shooting at Jordanelle State Park

Recently obtained security video shows the final moments that led up to a fatal road rage near Jordanelle State Park that left one man dead in September.

www.fox13now.com

The deceased is alleged to have been holding a baton and knife. Shooter is alleged to have used Black Talon bullets which have been discontinued now for 25 years.

Old advice about don't bring a knife to a gun fight comes to mind.
If he approached the other party with weapons, even though they both sound like complete d-bags, self defense is still applicable IMHO.

 

[mtmuley]

Civil suit from the decedent's side coming. mtmuley

 

[Johnny Bravo]

Not good all the way around, lazy investigators and lazy DA IMO. This is pretty easily proven not to be self defense. He followed the guy and then could have driven off, not to mention he's in the car with locked doors so I'm sure he was in no danger. The dead guy thought he was tough, another issue....guess that did not work out fro him. Get dash cameras people, front and back and don't get out with a knife in the dark...pure stupidity. The dead guy probably drove there because he thought no one would see if HE did anything....did not work out for him. The killer is a gutless POS IMO.