SCOPE LEVEL?

[Fire_9]

No room on objective side since I need it as far back as I can get it for ER. For parallax they say turn until focus is clear so settings on knob don't matter. I can try it with bubble on either side.

What’s more important than the image being clear is that the reticle doesn’t move on your target if you move your head. That will tell you if your parallax is set correctly. A clear image doesn’t always mean that you have it set right

 

[ShadowFast1]

Not my data but I found this on the internet so it must be true. At 300 yards with a .308 running a 168 Gr SMK at 2700 fps: 1° of cant can give 1/2" horizontal error, 5° gives 2-1/2" horizontal error and 1/10" low vertical error, and 10° gives just under 5" horizontal error and almost 1/2" low vertical error. Add a gust of wind and you can go from a good hit in the vitals to a wounded animal.

Cant certainly does have an effect but whether it is "Great" you can judge for yourself at the distances you intend to shoot. In my limited experience I don't think it's enough of a problem for the ranges I shoot to worry about as I can get pretty close to level naturally. There may be some instances of shooting from very uneven terrain to very uneven terrain where having a level might be useful. I can see benefits to it. And you can get some pretty lightweight versions that won't equate to a lot of pain if you have to tote it around all day. If it's a problem for you then get one if not then don't.

 

[antelopedundee]

What’s more important than the image being clear is that the reticle doesn’t move on your target if you move your head. That will tell you if your parallax is set correctly. A clear image doesn’t always mean that you have it set right

Agree.

 

[antelopedundee]

Not my data but I found this on the internet so it must be true. At 300 yards with a .308 running a 168 Gr SMK at 2700 fps: 1° of cant can give 1/2" horizontal error, 5° gives 2-1/2" horizontal error and 1/10" low vertical error, and 10° gives just under 5" horizontal error and almost 1/2" low vertical error. Add a gust of wind and you can go from a good hit in the vitals to a wounded animal.

Cant certainly does have an effect but whether it is "Great" you can judge for yourself at the distances you intend to shoot. In my limited experience I don't think it's enough of a problem for the ranges I shoot to worry about as I can get pretty close to level naturally. There may be some instances of shooting from very uneven terrain to very uneven terrain where having a level might be useful. I can see benefits to it. And you can get some pretty lightweight versions that won't equate to a lot of pain if you have to tote it around all day. If it's a problem for you then get one if not then don't.

Assuming that one has done a decent job of zeroing the level; that is when you look thru the scope and the crosshairs are vertically and horizontally exact to your eye the bubble should be in its spot between the lines. If you're shooting with a bipod one can try putting various thicknesses of wood under one of the bipod legs say a piece of 2 x 4 or a 1" thick piece and see how much difference it makes. That is if your groups are small enough to discern the difference. For me the level was cheap so mite as swell use it even if it's just decoration. I know it will make it easier at the bench to adjust the bipod so the crosshairs are level.

 

[ShadowFast1]

Assuming that one has done a decent job of zeroing the level; that is when you look thru the scope and the crosshairs are vertically and horizontally exact to your eye the bubble should be in its spot between the lines. If you're shooting with a bipod one can try putting various thicknesses of wood under one of the bipod legs say a piece of 2 x 4 or a 1" thick piece and see how much difference it makes. That is if your groups are small enough to discern the difference. For me the level was cheap so mite as swell use it even if it's just decoration. I know it will make it easier at the bench to adjust the bipod so the crosshairs are level.

Absolutely nothing wrong with that. And if you're diagnosing a problem with the gun or a certain load a level can help remove one variable.

 

[antelopedundee]

Absolutely nothing wrong with that. And if you're diagnosing a problem with the gun or a certain load a level can help remove one variable.

If one is using a Picatinny style base there are levels that attach to the base and these will tell you if the rifle is canted or not. Simply adjust your bipod legs until the level indicates that the gun isn't canted. Once done a scope mounted level can be can be set to coincide with the rail mounted level and I think the scope mounted one would be easier to check when one is in shooting position. I just picked up a rail with the level built in, but it's tough to see it hidden under the eyepiece.

 

[ShadowFast1]

After you get your level installed and adjusted I'd go hang a plumb line and confirm your level is dead on. There's a great video on that HERE.

 

[antelopedundee]

After you get your level installed and adjusted I'd go hang a plumb line and confirm your level is dead on. There's a great video on that HERE.

If the gun was level and the vertical crosshair was off by say 3 degrees from exact vertical how much error would there be at 100 yards if you tweaked the scope to move the ? POI of 3 inches high and 3 inches from the previous POI?

 

[Fire_9]

Don’t worry about leveling it to your action. In my opinion, you’re a lot better off if you level your reticle to how you naturally hold the rifle. All that matters is your reticle is level with the world

 

[antelopedundee]

Don’t worry about leveling it to your action. In my opinion, you’re a lot better off if you level your reticle to how you naturally hold the rifle. All that matters is your reticle is level with the world

I thought that the whole idea behind using the level was to get the shooter to hold the gun more or less straight.

 

[ShadowFast1]

If you're zero'd at 100 yards and your scope is canted 3° and you adjust your impact up by 3 inches you'll likely only get approximately 2-3/4" of actual vertical adjustment but you'll also start to move your POI to the left or right depending on which direction the scope is canted. If you adjust 3 inches left or right you'll move your POI again that same 2-3/4"ish but your impact will move either up or down a slight amount depending on the direction of cant and direction of adjustment. Unless you're shooting one hole groups at 100 yards the average shooter might not even notice that small of an error. Where it magnifies itself to the point where you should take action is at longer ranges.

 

[mtmuley]

A scope level is one of those things the vast majority of hunters don't need. Another variable introduced that will just be a hindrance more than a help. mtmuley

 

[antelopedundee]

If you're zero'd at 100 yards and your scope is canted 3° and you adjust your impact up by 3 inches you'll likely only get approximately 2-3/4" of actual vertical adjustment but you'll also start to move your POI to the left or right depending on which direction the scope is canted. If you adjust 3 inches left or right you'll move your POI again that same 2-3/4"ish but your impact will move either up or down a slight amount depending on the direction of cant and direction of adjustment. Unless you're shooting one hole groups at 100 yards the average shooter might not even notice that small of an error. Where it magnifies itself to the point where you should take action is at longer ranges.

I maybe could have been clearer, but I was referring to a rifle set straight up, but the scope rotated 3 degrees in the rings off of true vertical. Usually when I install a scope I just eyeball it to make sure that the reticles are vertical and horizontal. I can tell when they aren't, but not to the gnat's ass. Would being 3 degrees off of vertical even matter at 200 yards since the crosshairs always remain centered when you look through the scope?

 

[antelopedundee]

A scope level is one of those things the vast majority of hunters don't need. Another variable introduced that will just be a hindrance more than a help. mtmuley

Agree, but I find it useful at the range when benchtops aren't level and each bench is different. So instead of fiddling with the front rest or bipod legs and looking thru the scope it seems easier to move stuff until the level says it's level. A bubble level that quick attaches to a Pickem Tinny base is about $5 offa eBay.

 

[ShadowFast1]

All of what I wrote applies to a rifle that is level but a scope that's 3° canted. Say your rifle is level and your scope is canted left, as you adjust your POI up your actually moving the crosshair down and slightly right causing your POI to be high and left. If you adjust your POI left your crosshair will go right and slightly up causing your POI to be left and low. You can still zero a rifle with a canted scope but your windage and elevation adjustments will not be 100% accurate on paper to what the turrets are calibrated for as the reticle is not tracking plumb. Your reticle may look level but your adjustments may show you otherwise.

Not all levels are created equally. Most do not give you the precision that you think you're getting. If you think at all that you need a scope level buy one that gives you the degree of resolution that gets you dead level every time.

 

[FLS]

I use a couple of levels when I set a rifle up, and I do a tall target test to check tracking. I shoot a good bit of LR and don't have them on any of my rifles, except a precision AR that has it machined into the Aadland mount. We shoot from all kinds of funky positions in a match, and I'm able to hit 1-2 MOA targets out to 11-1200 yards so I don't thinks it's a necessity. Some guys love them , some don't. If you think it's helping your shooting, by all means use one.

 

[antelopedundee]

All of what I wrote applies to a rifle that is level but a scope that's 3° canted. Say your rifle is level and your scope is canted left, as you adjust your POI up your actually moving the crosshair down and slightly right causing your POI to be high and left. If you adjust your POI left your crosshair will go right and slightly up causing your POI to be left and low. You can still zero a rifle with a canted scope but your windage and elevation adjustments will not be 100% accurate on paper to what the turrets are calibrated for as the reticle is not tracking plumb. Your reticle may look level but your adjustments may show you otherwise.

Not all levels are created equally. Most do not give you the precision that you think you're getting. If you think at all that you need a scope level buy one that gives you the degree of resolution that gets you dead level every time.

So a properly aligned scope on a canted rifle [meaning both scope and rifle are canted at the same time] will behave pretty much like a rifle that isn't canted but the scope is a little rotated in the rings? I'm pretty much satisfied with my installation setups, but find a level useful at the range when setting up.

 

[ShadowFast1]

Essentially yes, someone could cant the rifle one way and the scope the other direction and as long as you kept the reticle level to the world as you are shooting you shouldn't see any significant problems from that. The point of the scope level is you keep your reticle level to the world every single time. That video I linked to in a previous post addresses that very thing.

 

[Fire_9]

I thought that the whole idea behind using the level was to get the shooter to hold the gun more or less straight.

That is common misconception. As Shadow stated, all that matters is that your reticle is level with the world. It’s easier to achieve this if you level your scope to your natural hold instead of leveling the scope to a level action.

 

[antelopedundee]

That is common misconception. As Shadow stated, all that matters is that your reticle is level with the world. It’s easier to achieve this if you level your scope to your natural hold instead of leveling the scope to a level action.

My natural hold tends to coincide with having the gun in a pretty much vertical position. Doesn't need to be 0 +/- 0.00 degrees. I have just one of the Picatinny bases for now, but may be inclined to get more. So I'd use a level that attaches to a base to get the gun level. Scope installed so that vertical cross hair is vertical or dang close to it. Since I already have a level on the scope, I'd adjust that to coincide with the other level. Probably unnecessary overkill, but for the pittance cost of the levels it's fun to play around.