SB 63 - Revise law related to the use of motion-tracking devices while hunting

[Dave N]

To be clear wouldn’t the drone have to have some additional device attached to it that allows motion tracking? A drone with no camera or thermal imaging device would not be a motion tracking device since it would not be relaying real time information to you. That’s my take on it anyway. It’s actually the thermal imager or camera that make it a motion tracking device

But flying a drone without them would just be flying one for kicks and right near you since you have to watch where it is.

 

[Carnage2011]

To be clear wouldn’t the drone have to have some additional device attached to it that allows motion tracking? A drone with no camera or thermal imaging device would not be a motion tracking device since it would not be relaying real time information to you. That’s my take on it anyway. It’s actually the thermal imager or camera that make it a motion tracking device

Do they make drones without cameras?

 

[rogerthat]

Do they make drones without cameras?

Absolutely but I get your point and mine was a dumb one. They would have one for about any reason you would see someone in the field while hunting. Just thinking it through out loud I guess. Sorry

 

[Carnage2011]

Absolutely but I get your point and mine was a dumb one. They would have one for about any reason you would see someone in the field while hunting.

I wasn’t being a smartass or rhetorical. That was a serious question. I’ve never seen one without a camera so I assumed they all did. I know there are fire fighting drones that hook up to a hose, but I’ve never seen one to confirm a camera or not.

Don’t want to derail this thread though. Back to the topic at hand!

 

[Sytes]

If a drone flies for the purpose of hunting related operations - FWP regulation is already in the book that it may not be used for same day hunting. Same day / calendar day - same intent.

This proposed bill has absolutely nothing to do with drones. I imagine it has to do with modern day trail cams, slight delay thus not real time as another commented.

 

[rogerthat]

If a drone flies for the purpose of hunting related operations - FWP regulation is already in the book that it may not be used for same day hunting. Same day / calendar day - same intent.

This proposed bill has absolutely nothing to do with drones. I imagine it has to do with modern day trail cams, slight delay thus not real time as another commented.

Did you watch the EQC meeting I referenced in post #16? I tried to lay out the key times to save everyone time but if you didn’t, ex director temple specifically states the bill is in response to people thermaling elk in the dark to locate them and set themselves up for day time hunting/shooting. I think for trail cams it’s just going to be the ones that would be defined as motion tracking devices. I bet they get some questions on that tomorrow. And I bet drones and aircraft come up too tomorrow simply because I think the calendar day timeframe was to try to square it up since as others have said a drone will get classed as a motion tracking device also. But that’s speculation at this point

 

[Sytes]

up since as others have said a drone will get classed as a motion tracking device also.

(d) while hunting or within the same calendar day that a person intends to hunt or has hunted, use any electronic motion-tracking device or mechanism, as defined by commission rule, that is designed to track the motion of a game animal and relay information on the animal's movement to the hunter relays information 25 26 27 on the movement of any game animal, fur-bearing animal, upland game bird, or migratory game bird to the hunter. A person may not communicate the location of any game animal, fur-bearing animal, upland game bird, or migratory game bird to another person as an aid to hunting within the same calendar day of using an electronic motion-tracking device or mechanism to locate the animal or bird.

Current regulation:

"A UAV/drone may not be used to locate game animals for the purposes of: hunting those animals during the same hunting day after a UAV/drone has been airborne, or providing information for another person for the purposes of hunting those animals within the same hunting day after the UAV/ drone has been airborne. "

***Revised for clarity***

I believe this is where we're getting hung up regarding this proposed bill;

The legal definition of "hunt" is contrary to the Billings Gazette article quoting FWP LE understanding of the definition of, "hunt".

87-6-101. Definitions
(15) "Hunt" means to pursue, shoot, wound, take, harvest, kill, chase, lure, possess, or capture or the act of a person possessing a weapon, as defined in 45-2-101...

Again, the law already exists for people hunting and uav/drone use. It may not be used the same day for the purpose to hunt.

 

[rogerthat]

(d) while hunting or within the same calendar day that a person intends to hunt or has hunted, use any electronic motion-tracking device or mechanism, as defined by commission rule, that is designed to track the motion of a game animal and relay information on the animal's movement to the hunter relays information 25 26 27 on the movement of any game animal, fur-bearing animal, upland game bird, or migratory game bird to the hunter. A person may not communicate the location of any game animal, fur-bearing animal, upland game bird, or migratory game bird to another person as an aid to hunting within the same calendar day of using an electronic motion-tracking device or mechanism to locate the animal or bird.

Current regulation:

"A UAV/drone may not be used to locate game animals for the purposes of: hunting those animals during the same hunting day after a UAV/drone has been airborne, or providing information for another person for the purposes of hunting those animals within the same hunting day after the UAV/ drone has been airborne. "

***Revised for clarity***

I believe this is where we're getting hung up regarding this proposed bill;

The legal definition of "hunt" is contrary to the Billings Gazette article quoting FWP LE understanding of the definition of, "hunt".

87-6-101. Definitions
(15) "Hunt" means to pursue, shoot, wound, take, harvest, kill, chase, lure, possess, or capture or the act of a person possessing a weapon, as defined in 45-2-101...

Again, the law already exists for people hunting and uav/drone use. It may not be used the same day for the purpose to hunt.

I agree with you. What I am saying is drones with cameras thermal or otherwise also meet the motion tracking classification so as to avoid confusion it would seem FWP would want these to match, but the downside to that is that it lets the thermals be used the evening prior to hunting with or without drone. Not sure what it’s like flying those things in the dark. I don’t think anyone is saying this changes anything for drones as currently written

 

[Forkyfinder]

(d) while hunting or within the same calendar day that a person intends to hunt or has hunted, use any electronic motion-tracking device or mechanism, as defined by commission rule, that is designed to track the motion of a game animal and relay information on the animal's movement to the hunter relays information 25 26 27 on the movement of any game animal, fur-bearing animal, upland game bird, or migratory game bird to the hunter. A person may not communicate the location of any game animal, fur-bearing animal, upland game bird, or migratory game bird to another person as an aid to hunting within the same calendar day of using an electronic motion-tracking device or mechanism to locate the animal or bird.

Current regulation:

"A UAV/drone may not be used to locate game animals for the purposes of: hunting those animals during the same hunting day after a UAV/drone has been airborne, or providing information for another person for the purposes of hunting those animals within the same hunting day after the UAV/ drone has been airborne. "

***Revised for clarity***

I believe this is where we're getting hung up regarding this proposed bill;

The legal definition of "hunt" is contrary to the Billings Gazette article quoting FWP LE understanding of the definition of, "hunt".

87-6-101. Definitions
(15) "Hunt" means to pursue, shoot, wound, take, harvest, kill, chase, lure, possess, or capture or the act of a person possessing a weapon, as defined in 45-2-101...

Again, the law already exists for people hunting and uav/drone use. It may not be used the same day for the purpose to hunt.

Hey sytes - if you and i go out and thermal a bull at 10 pm - then go shoot him at 6 am thr next day - it didnt happen in the same calendar day.....

 

[Sytes]

Hey sytes - if you and i go out and thermal a bull at 10 pm - then go shoot him at 6 am thr next day - it didnt happen in the same calendar day.....

Agree. This bill does absolutely zilch to modify that scenario.
"Calendar day" exact same as "Same day".

Side note as a drone owner, a drone must be within visual line of sight. This is a federal law, FAA.

 

[Straight Arrow]

This is a federal law, FAA.

'Tell it to the drone-boners!

 

[Forkyfinder]

Agree. This bill does absolutely zilch to modify that scenario.
"Calendar day" exact same as "Same day".

Side note as a drone owner, a drone must be within visual line of sight. This is a federal law, FAA.

Yeah. It needs work.

Also own a drone. I imagine the compliance with that law is far below even the filming permit required on federal land. . .

 

[Sytes]

I agree with you. What I am saying is drones with cameras thermal or otherwise also meet the motion tracking classification so as to avoid confusion it would seem FWP would want these to match, but the downside to that is that it lets the thermals be used the evening prior to hunting with or without drone. Not sure what it’s like flying those things in the dark. I don’t think anyone is saying this changes anything for drones as currently written

Okay, I somewhat get it though an amendment to a current law would do the same with much less hassle, imo than trying to pass a new law(?).

'Tell it to the drone-boners!

Thanks? Dropped to name calling now? Whatever floats your boat.

Reality, a person who purchases a drone is required to obtain a uav registration identification that is also attached to the drone via FAA. This requires they pass a test acknowledging their understanding of uav laws.
Same as State hunters ed. Laws for legally maintaining a license to hunt.

***A criminal doesn't give a rats arse about a law. They care whether they can get away without getting caught.

IMO, I'd be more concerned over hunters/outfitters that pack in 5-10 game active connect trail cameras, sit back and watch for activity at camp, then go out and fill their client or their own tags.

That is a hell of a lot more effective then worrying about a person making a 20 minute flight from lift off to landing in hopes they catch onto something moving in their single route... battery weight, drone weight, and lack of recharge make drones child's play with regard to modern trail cameras.

 

[rogerthat]

I’m not an expert on the process @Sytes what I can tell you is that I have known this was an issue and has been happening since 2018. More frequently now with the price drops in the tech. I have sent a bunch of emails and made phone calls on it. I have talked to 3 directors, the head of fwp law enforcement, commissioners, legislators, and my regional staff a ton. Everyone agreed it was just an oversight, needed to be fixed, and it should be a fairly easy fix but as we know the devils in the details and when they looked into it this is what was arrived at as a solution. I have to trust the folks that know the process, have arrived at the most efficient solution.

Isn’t this amending an existing law? This statute is on the books and one section is just being changed.

 

[Straight Arrow]

Thanks? Dropped to name calling now? Whatever floats your boat.

Overly sensitive assumption that it's all about you. No, I tend to think you would comply with existing law such as you quoted: "Side note as a drone owner, a drone must be within visual line of sight."

What "floats my boat" is characterizing those who do not comply with the law as "drone-boners'!
'Sorry your feathers were ruffled, Sytes.

 

[Sytes]

Isn’t this amending an existing law? This statute is on the books and one section is just being changed.

I'm not familiar with amendments vs creation and passage of a new law. I used my Google edumacation to learn the basic overview of the two. Wonderful world of AI returned a simple(r) Montana process to amend vs new.

That said, a legislative representative can not grab headlines as creating laws if they simply amend thus... New passage of another law.

 

[Sytes]

What "floats my boat" is characterizing those who do not comply with the law as "drone-boners'!

Education for those who do not understand drone use in the backcountry.

As we all know, weight when packing into the backcountry is key:

A drone battery lasts maybe 15-30 minutes. A drone battery to charge is farrrrr beyond a simple solar charger or recharge pack (weight added), maybe a couple... might as well pack another drone battery (more weight). These are not light.

IME, it's a PITA to get three runs of drone footage packing in two batteries, drone, and controlling unit.

Example:

This one use took up one battery.

Picture, packing in a drone with two batteries. Great! Woo-fking-hoo! You get two 15 minute flights (takeoff/land) to view for wildlife the day before you hunt.

OR

Pack in 5 modern connect to phone trail cams. First hunt, place cams along the way.
For the 3-10 days hunting group (or outfitters pre-set).
Those cameras are actively sending reports to your phone - the entire time.

THAT is my concern with the future of hunting.

To each their own.

 

[Straight Arrow]

THAT is my concern with the future of hunting.

Yep ... my concern is overabundance of surveillance and other electronic devices employed on public lands for hunting enhancement ... support of laziness and diminishment of hunting legacy tradition.