SB 312 - eliminating outfitter set asides.

[mariano742]

well I think what the 6% guided pool draw in NM does is provide an outlet for people who say “what the hell. I can’t draw this damn tag i really want. I’ve been trying for a long time and bleep it i’m putting in for the guided draw on this tag bc I’m getting older and i’ve saved some money and I want to have a better chance to hunt a great tag. 95+% of the time i have hunted unguided and diy no outfitter. I just put in for NM mule deer in the guided draw bc I found an outfitter with good references who does semi guided hunts for $2k. It gets me a chance to be in the guided draw. it really ups my chance of drawing a couple of my hunt choices
As far as landowner tags go, well, i’ve never hunted one. But i’ve set aside some money over the past zillion years. I’m 46 and if I want to take my hard earned money and spend it on a one time shot on a really great tag that i’m unlikely to draw in my lifetime I think it rewards me for saving the money. $7k for a really awesome tag? $7k over the past 20 years? A one time chance to hunt a tag I’ll probably never draw? break that down over how many years and spread it out with my other hunting costs on all my general tags and 1-2 point draw tags and how much is it really costing me over the course of all these years saving for it? not much. Point is that I don’t think everyone who buys a landowner tag is mr moneybags. i’m certainly not.

 

[mariano742]

Anyone who thinks that taking 6% of the tags and giving them to residents is going to “Help DIY guys” needs tu consider the following. It’s going to destroy already low draw odds for NR hunters It’s going to push those largely out of state hunters into the 10% of tags set aside. it’s going to give the already high 84% Resident pool 90% of the tags. It’s going to make those who want a guide and outfitter take up more than half of the 10% of all tags allocated to NR. That leaves probably 5% of tags for out of state hunters who are coming to DIY. That’s making it TWICE as hard to get a tag. Right now you can get a decent elk tag in the NM draw in units like 51 or 52 or 49 every 3-4 years. that’s going to be once every 8-10 years in a heartbeat with this law. for a 7% increase in Resident tag availability. 6%/84%=7%
16% is ALREADY a low % of NR set aside compared to CO WY and other states. it sucks. This will NOT help DIY hunters. being excited bc it’s going to stick it to the rich guy or some other envious cardinal sin derived thought is going to shoot your self in the foot bc it will definitely reduce DIY opportunity.

 

[The Hedgehog]

Like I said in my last post.

 

[mariano742]

I'm not a fan of these Guide/Outfitter pool only, it's nothing but a monopoly. Whatever this does to draw odds is irrelevant, it opens up more opportunities to DIY guys, even if the overall draw odds lower for the NR pool of applicants. I'm all for this.

it DOES the OPPOSITE of helping DIY guys. Your chance of getting a tag is going WAY down. those 6% of guided hunters are 99% NR applicants. they’re going to cut the NR DIY hunters odds in half. Are you so worried about sticking it to a “rich guy” that you don’t care that anybody, myself included 95% of the time, in the 10% NR pool will have their odds go to hell??

 

[mariano742]

NM is a deeply blue state. The only way to get something like this through is to attach it to a larger bill like this. Those groups support the changes to the Jennings Law. I can’t imagine why they wouldn’t support it and after learning what the Jennings Law is, I can’t imagine hunters not supporting changing it either.

if you don’t think those groups mentioned have an end goal of destroying hunting entirely then you are deluded. If they’re for it you need to really scratch your head and figure out why and question why you support anything that those groups support

 

[MTGomer]

If they’re for it you need to really scratch your head and figure out why and question why you support anything that those groups support

Whether or not to support allowing the gunning down of large amounts of big game by landowners doesn’t present a major dilemma for me.

I don’t have to think too hard about which side of that I’m on.

Hunters are the biggest threat to hunting with no close second place.

 

[mariano742]

Whether or not to support allowing the gunning down of large amounts of big game by landowners doesn’t present a major dilemma for me.

I don’t have to think too hard about which side of that I’m on.

Hunters are the biggest threat to hunting with no close second place.

uh you need to check with reality. Gunning down large amounts of big game?? lol. last time i checked we’re talking about NM. A state that people are dying to get elk tags in. Sooooo if what you’re saying is true then uh, why are people lining up to hunt it??? Why do they have famously large elk herds? And no. hunters are not the biggest threat to hunting. What are you talking about??

 

[MTGomer]

uh you need to check with reality. Gunning down large amounts of big game?? lol. last time i checked we’re talking about NM.

We are talking about NM, specifically about the Jennings Law. It sounds like maybe you don’t know what the Jennings Law is?

“ A dozen years ago, Democratic Sen. Tim Jennings, a Roswell sheep rancher, got a provision tacked on to state law allowing landowners to kill wildlife that pose an immediate threat to crops.
Since then, several high-profile incidents have caught the attention of the public.
A Cimarron-area rancher last year killed or wounded more than three dozen pronghorn antelope with a shotgun because they had been eating his winter wheat.”

ABQJOURNAL NEWS/STATE: Killing Crop-Eating Wildlife Still Legal in N.M.

 

[MTGomer]

well I think what the 6% guided pool draw in NM does is provide an outlet for people who say “what the hell. I can’t draw this damn tag i really want. I’ve been trying for a long time and bleep it i’m putting in for the guided draw on this tag bc I’m getting older and i’ve saved some money and I want to have a better chance to hunt a great tag. 95+% of the time i have hunted unguided and diy no outfitter. I just put in for NM mule deer in the guided draw bc I found an outfitter with good references who does semi guided hunts for $2k. It gets me a chance to be in the guided draw. it really ups my chance of drawing a couple of my hunt choices
As far as landowner tags go, well, i’ve never hunted one. But i’ve set aside some money over the past zillion years. I’m 46 and if I want to take my hard earned money and spend it on a one time shot on a really great tag that i’m unlikely to draw in my lifetime I think it rewards me for saving the money. $7k for a really awesome tag? $7k over the past 20 years? A one time chance to hunt a tag I’ll probably never draw? break that down over how many years and spread it out with my other hunting costs on all my general tags and 1-2 point draw tags and how much is it really costing me over the course of all these years saving for it? not much. Point is that I don’t think everyone who buys a landowner tag is mr moneybags. i’m certainly not.

You used “I, me, my” approximately 24 times, but according to your location, you live in Maine.
This bill isn’t about you.
It’s about returning ownership of elk to their rightful owners and taking a step to decommercialize hunting.

 

[mariano742]

You used “I, me, my” approximately 24 times, but according to your location, you live in Maine.
This bill isn’t about you.
It’s about returning ownership of elk to their rightful owners and taking a step to decommercialize hunting.

decommercialize hunting? commercialization is the north american model. We pay the state for tags and licenses. Wildlife is managed with funds raised by hunters. This bill absolutely is about me and any other non resident hunter who wants to come to NM to hunt on their own NM residents don’t own the elk in NM anymore than i own the deer in Maine. If you can show me how putting all the nonresident hunters currently applying for 16% of the tags into a 10% pool will increase my odds of getting an elk tag that would be great. With regard to landowner tags it sounds like you have a chip on your shoulder against property owners and begrudge them the right to own land and be compensated. If they weren’t compensated for their loss a whole lot more culling would go on that’s a fact. If NM’s system is working why change it. I fail to see how it isn’t working unless reduced hunter opportunity for most people and punishing the evil land owners is your agenda.

 

[MTGomer]

commercialization is the north american model...... NM residents don’t own the elk in NM anymore than i own the deer in Maine.

In a competition for the two most uninformed statements that will be put on Hunt Talk today, we have what appears to be a tie for 1st place.

 

[hogcarpy]

Does anybody know when New Mexico introduced the Outfitter pool and changed the NR allocation?

I would be interested in doing some research to see how it effected NR draw odds. With the debate on SB 312 helping or hurting the DIY guys, maybe history would provide some clues?

 

[Labman]

Does anybody know when New Mexico introduced the Outfitter pool and changed the NR allocation?

I would be interested in doing some research to see how it effected NR draw odds. With the debate on SB 312 helping or hurting the DIY guys, maybe history would provide some clues?

I would love to see that graph, and am sure the year Instagram was invented one would see an obvious spike.

 

[npaden]

It was in 2011. The split was 78% resident, 12% nonresident and 10% in an outfitter pool that if no one applied in it slid over to the nonresident side.

They bumped the resident split to 84%, dropped the DIY nonresident to 6% and kept the 10% outfitter pool at 10% but if no one applied it slides over to the resident side now.

 

[mariano742]

In a competition for the two most uninformed statements that will be put on Hunt Talk today, we have what appears to be a tie for 1st place.

ok. ignore anything i said and label it. genius.

 

[mariano742]

The fact is that the lions share of wildlife funding for state agencies comes from NR hunters. And local communities benefit from robust NR hunter actuvity. This is the commercialization. if NR hunters disappeared on public land it would devastate many small western towns. This reduction in NR hunting opportunity is bad. NR hunters who don’t like outfitters or landowners are not going to magically get better draw odds just because this bill sticks it to the man. In fact the opposite will happen to their draw odds. it’s plain ole fashioned math. not the emotions you feel about those evil rich landowners or those evil outfitters.

 

[SaskHunter]

it DOES the OPPOSITE of helping DIY guys. Your chance of getting a tag is going WAY down. those 6% of guided hunters are 99% NR applicants. they’re going to cut the NR DIY hunters odds in half. Are you so worried about sticking it to a “rich guy” that you don’t care that anybody, myself included 95% of the time, in the 10% NR pool will have their odds go to hell??

I adds to the overall NR allowance. Who knows exactly who will get those licenses? Most of those licenses may end up going to NR DIY guys and that's what I am all for. I don't care about my personal odds if the system is set up that any NR DIY applicant has a chance at all those tags.

I'm not sure where you gathered that I want to "stick it to the rich guy", I don't, I want to stick it to outfitters who have monopolies.

 

[mariano742]

I adds to the overall NR allowance. Who knows exactly who will get those licenses? Most of those licenses may end up going to NR DIY guys and that's what I am all for. I don't care about my personal odds if the system is set up that any NR DIY applicant has a chance at all those tags.

I'm not sure where you gathered that I want to "stick it to the rich guy", I don't, I want to stick it to outfitters who have monopolies.

saying who knows who is going to get those tags is extremely dishonest. out of the guided draw and NR draw you have a total of roughly 15%-15.5% of the tags going to NR hunters
what part of 15% being pushed into 10% do you not get? Seriously. I’m completely flabbergasted. does your brain really just see the 6% pool going to 10% and you think oh that’s good? Are you really not living in the real world where the effect of doing that will push virtually all of the guided draw people into your 10% is something you’re willing to put your head in the sand over? it’s not like they’re saying “you know what? That set aside for the guided draw is just wrong. and really we know that those tags are mostly for NR hunters So we’re going to just make it an 85% Resident draw and a 15% NR draw.”
Math!!! Do the math! just bc the evil monopoly is getting busted it doesn’t mean that it helps NR DIY hunters.

 

[SaskHunter]

saying who knows who is going to get those tags is extremely dishonest. out of the guided draw and NR draw you have a total of roughly 15%-15.5% of the tags going to NR hunters
what part of 15% being pushed into 10% do you not get? Seriously. I’m completely flabbergasted. does your brain really just see the 6% pool going to 10% and you think oh that’s good? Are you really not living in the real world where the effect of doing that will push virtually all of the guided draw people into your 10% is something you’re willing to put your head in the sand over? it’s not like they’re saying “you know what? That set aside for the guided draw is just wrong. and really we know that those tags are mostly for NR hunters So we’re going to just make it an 85% Resident draw and a 15% NR draw.”
Math!!! Do the math! just bc the evil monopoly is getting busted it doesn’t mean that it helps NR DIY hunters.

You seem very emotional about this issue which is mainly aimed to benefit Resident hunters of NM, not NR residents from Maine or Saskatchewan. I see things differently, you can argue all you want and embark on this crusade of yours, you can also be as flabbergasted as you'd like, I really don't care.

I'm not sure what part of me being against guide/outfitter pool you don't get. I really couldn't give a rats butt about the math if it removes these handouts to guides and outfitters. If NR want to apply in the NR pool of applicant and choose to get an outfitter, so be it. At the end of the day, I'm not a resident of NM so I really don't care what they elect to do, I will adjust my applications accordingly whichever way this goes.

 

[Nick87]

Honest question, I could put in the nonresident regular draw, draw a tag, then hire an outfitter correct? If so how many guys are doing that now? Is the non outfitter draw only for diy hunters?