Sarin discovery deserved more than a blasé response
- Thread starter Hangar18
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pawclaws
Guest
"Like it or not, this country made a democratic political decision to seek to steal a march on Islamic terrorism by overthrowing Saddam and using Iraq to prod the Middle East toward reform and the greater stability that comes from democracy and economic development. " Well I'll be damned; somebody really is paying attention!
JoseCuervo
New member
But funny enough, there was never a link between Saddam and Al-Quaida, so what "Islamic Terroism" was "steal"en? If you care to remember, Bin Laden actually despised Saddam....
And why on Earth would anybody think that Democracy is needed or desirable in the Middle East? Any examples where it is working???
And why on Earth would anybody think that Democracy is needed or desirable in the Middle East? Any examples where it is working???
Hangar18
New member
"Iraq today harbors a deadly terrorist network headed by Abu Musab Al-Zarqawi." Colin Powell, Feb 5, 2003. Al-Zarqawi made news recently. It had to do with a saw, and an American's head.
Isn't Turkey democratic? How are they worse off than say Saudi Arabia that is run by a cloaked dictatorship, which at minimum is a marxist style monarchy? Do you have any examples of a failed democracy in the middle east? "And why on Earth would anybody think that Democracy is needed or desirable in the Middle East?" It's called FREEDOM. People deserve to live free, right? You just made a value judgement that the people in the middle east do not deserve this.
RockyDog
Member
"It's called FREEDOM. People deserve to live free, right? You just made a value judgement that the people in the middle east do not deserve this."
If we are the world freedom police, then lets go into Saudi Arabia, they supplied the 911 terrorists. They still have public beheadings and mutilations controlled by a hypocritical dictatorship.
If we are the world freedom police, then lets go into Saudi Arabia, they supplied the 911 terrorists. They still have public beheadings and mutilations controlled by a hypocritical dictatorship.
Hangar18
New member
RockyDog - I would not be opposed to that
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pawclaws
Guest
Elkgunner I feel quite certain that the link between Al Qaeda and Iraq, (more specifically Bin Laden and Hussein) will be reveled within the next few months. My best guess is October.
No, I'm not talking about the training camps maintained in Kurdistan; although theydo represent a tangible link to most normal, perceptive, observant,rational,unbiased, and unjaded people!
JoseCuervo
New member
Hangar,
How do you define "FREEDOM", and the way you enable it? That is a pretty subjective word, and there are other forms of government that offer "FREEDOM", that don't happen to be Democracy. Additionally, in our "FREEDOM", why don't we have the "FREEDOM" to hunt on BLM lands with out stepping in Cow Pies, Why don't we have the "FREEDOM" to fish for healthy Wild Salmon Runs in Idaho? We are as oppressed as anyone....
If we are going to be the "Freedom Police", then you are going to have to work hard to develop the criteria of who needs "Freed", and you are gonna be awful busy "Freeing" everyone from every form of Government that is not a Democracy....
How do you define "FREEDOM", and the way you enable it? That is a pretty subjective word, and there are other forms of government that offer "FREEDOM", that don't happen to be Democracy. Additionally, in our "FREEDOM", why don't we have the "FREEDOM" to hunt on BLM lands with out stepping in Cow Pies, Why don't we have the "FREEDOM" to fish for healthy Wild Salmon Runs in Idaho? We are as oppressed as anyone....
If we are going to be the "Freedom Police", then you are going to have to work hard to develop the criteria of who needs "Freed", and you are gonna be awful busy "Freeing" everyone from every form of Government that is not a Democracy....
Nemont
Well-known member
EG,
Usually you post some interesting insights into an issue then just when I think you are a pretty intelligent guy you say something like this.
So you equate living under a dictator to fishing for salmon and hunting on grazed federal lands? Maybe you should go cry to the North Korean people under Comrad Kim. Perhaps you should got to Cuba where Fidel owns everything.
Do you have the FREEDOM to bitch about things you want to see changed? Do you have the FREEDOM to work at a Profession of your own choosing? Do you have the gifts that FREEDOM has provided you? Most likely you and your family did not go to bed hungry, there is electrity at the end of the light switch, your sewer works and you have clean water. You have the FREEDOM to access quality health care. I could go on and on.
I call B.S. on the entire argument that becuase there is cow shit on BLM land that you are not free. I call B.S. that to you that lack of wild salmon are an infringement upon your freedom.
You are free to try and change it. You are free to gripe and bitch about it but you certainly are not oppressed by it.
Nemont
RockyDog
Member
lmao! im feeling oppressed because im not free to make Paris Hilton my love slave.
JoseCuervo
New member
Nemont,
Great post, and you proved my point. When you put your values on my "Freedom", you get different answers than I do. Just as when Dubya puts his values of "Freedom" on others.
I am not sure a High Standard of Living equates to "FREEDOM". And I am not sure that it is important. Many people around the world still live in areas without electricity, running water, and the Internet, and I would venture to guess, that they COULD be "FREE". Having those things does not make one "Free".
As I read these topics, why, if we are free, do we still have nutcases in Montana running around digging holes in the ground to live in??? They could only be doing that if they fear some sort of coming OPRESSION.
Why is it important that I have the "Freedom" to buy a gun at a gunshow with out any checks, but it is acceptable that if I buy a Car, I have to go tell the government what kind I bought?
And yes, I appreciate the "FREEDOM" to whine, but I also resent the "OPRESSION" that is the Patriot Act and Ashcroft's use of the same.
And you have to admidt, there is a sort of attractive element to a well-run Dictatorship. It is a very efficient way to run a country, and decisions get made quickly. I wouldn't have any trouble signing up to be "Dictator for Life".
Great post, and you proved my point. When you put your values on my "Freedom", you get different answers than I do. Just as when Dubya puts his values of "Freedom" on others.
I am not sure a High Standard of Living equates to "FREEDOM". And I am not sure that it is important. Many people around the world still live in areas without electricity, running water, and the Internet, and I would venture to guess, that they COULD be "FREE". Having those things does not make one "Free".
As I read these topics, why, if we are free, do we still have nutcases in Montana running around digging holes in the ground to live in???
They could only be doing that if they fear some sort of coming OPRESSION.Why is it important that I have the "Freedom" to buy a gun at a gunshow with out any checks, but it is acceptable that if I buy a Car, I have to go tell the government what kind I bought?
And yes, I appreciate the "FREEDOM" to whine, but I also resent the "OPRESSION" that is the Patriot Act and Ashcroft's use of the same.
And you have to admidt, there is a sort of attractive element to a well-run Dictatorship. It is a very efficient way to run a country, and decisions get made quickly. I wouldn't have any trouble signing up to be "Dictator for Life".
JoseCuervo
New member
Rocky,
I feel for your Opression, Bro'....
I feel for your Opression, Bro'....
Nemont
Well-known member
EG,
A dictatorship only looks attractive if I get to be the dictator.
Anyway you just pushed my buttons on that one.
Also if I were the dictator grazing on federal land would become a right.
Nemont
A dictatorship only looks attractive if I get to be the dictator.
I am not sure that a high standard of living is a measure of freedon either. It is just that when people are free to follow their own wishes and free to keep most of the fruits of their labor the standard of living increases.
Anyway you just pushed my buttons on that one.
Also if I were the dictator grazing on federal land would become a right.
Nemont
Hangar18
New member
EG,
See the Bill of Rights. That's a start.
See the Bill of Rights. That's a start.
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pawclaws
Guest
EG; we (collective US) do not give a rats ass whether anyone wants our Bill of Rights or not! What we want and must have is absolute assurance that others' concept of freedom does not include the freedom to blow up our property, take our citizens hostage, or decapitate our emigrants. That will take a comprehensive social curve shift; Iraq is where it begins.
Yep...Nut cases in Mt. digging holes, and also nut cases sitting in judgement of every one jumping to conclussions and in general being a clown, it is a great country, even a place that one can create their own private Idaho in...A great place that some can hide behind board owners shirt tails and stick their tounges out with out fear of reprisals....LMOA!!!! yep, it is a great country. A place that some one can even complain about a few cow turds with out worring about getting their heads cut off or shot because of their own ignorant comments. I love this country and take nothing for granted of what I have as some do. Of course it is not a utopia, but I wouldn't want to live in one of those places any way. One thing that is fun to watch, is full blown hypocrites spouting and touting how bad and evil it is to live here but will never put their money where their mouths are and go live in these other places they seem to constantly stick up for. It is so very easy to be a cinic and just produce lip service, it is another matter entirely to actually get off ones butt and do some thing that is constructive. I will say one thing for Buzz and Ithica, at least they act on what they belive in. One thing I have found in life is that just because some one has money and brains still doesn't mean they are really worth much if they are not willing to put those two traits to use in a possitive sence...
JoseCuervo
New member
Hey Paws,
Why don't you tell Hangar that our "Bill of Rights" doesn't need exported? He is the one advocating taking down all forms of government that aren't Democratic.
And sorry, but I think Dubya started this one... Isn't he the former governor of Texas who started executing citizens of other countries??? Looks like Paybacks are a bitch....
I would guess there would be very few of our "emigrants" being decapitated in Iraq, if there weren't also 135,000 US Soldiers occupying their land. But, if you want to go around invading countries, and toppling governments, every time some US Citizen has a crime committed against them, then between you and Hangar, you guys are gonna need 3 militaries of the current size.
You know, it is kind of funny, but it always seems to me, that the State Department issues me a list of countries where Travel is not advised. And I seem to take some Personal responsibility to stay out of those countries. Others who don't, should not expect the US Military to go topple a government because of their hubris.
Why don't you tell Hangar that our "Bill of Rights" doesn't need exported? He is the one advocating taking down all forms of government that aren't Democratic.
And sorry, but I think Dubya started this one... Isn't he the former governor of Texas who started executing citizens of other countries??? Looks like Paybacks are a bitch....
I would guess there would be very few of our "emigrants" being decapitated in Iraq, if there weren't also 135,000 US Soldiers occupying their land. But, if you want to go around invading countries, and toppling governments, every time some US Citizen has a crime committed against them, then between you and Hangar, you guys are gonna need 3 militaries of the current size.
You know, it is kind of funny, but it always seems to me, that the State Department issues me a list of countries where Travel is not advised. And I seem to take some Personal responsibility to stay out of those countries. Others who don't, should not expect the US Military to go topple a government because of their hubris.
Yep...Nut cases in Mt. digging holes, and also nut cases sitting in judgement of every one jumping to conclussions and in general being a clown, it is a great country, even a place that one can create their own private Idaho in...A great place that some can hide behind board owners shirt tails and stick their tounges out with out fear of reprisals....LMOA!!!! yep, it is a great country. A place that some one can even complain about a few cow turds with out worring about getting their heads cut off or shot because of their own ignorant comments. I love this country and take nothing for granted of what I have as some do. Of course it is not a utopia, but I wouldn't want to live in one of those places any way. One thing that is fun to watch, is full blown hypocrites spouting and touting how bad and evil it is to live here but will never put their money where their mouths are and go live in these other places they seem to constantly stick up for. It is so very easy to be a cinic and just produce lip service, it is another matter entirely to actually get off ones butt and do some thing that is constructive. I will say one thing for Buzz and Ithica, at least they act on what they belive in. One thing I have found in life is that just because some one has money and brains still doesn't mean they are really worth much if they are not willing to put those two traits to use in a possitive sence...
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pawclaws
Guest
Elkgunner my bet is you will see things a bit differently when Mohammed has you by the ball hair with a dagger in one hand! Get your damned facts straight bubba. Bush didn't execute anyone. That was done by judge and jury; hardly afforded to that poor schmuck trying to drum up cell phone sales. And no the country doesn't retaliate on behalf of every citizen that gets their puds in a twist; but, if you check the record you may just discover it is high time. I, one American, am damn tired of seeing our citizens treated like fair game in virtually every country we enter. I know folk charged with crimes ranging from petty theft to rape in virtually every third world nation you can name. Would you be surprised to learn that the two things these cases have in common are (1) there swas no crime committed and (2) the charges were motivated by the desire for a quick pay off. I hope your next trip over the pond you take time to reflect on the fact that (1) you are not protected by the laws of the United States. (2) if you should become involved in a traffic accident you may be subjected to the full legal system of the nation you are visiting (3) if your passport isn't a red one the only assistance you will receive from the US Embassy is the possible referral of a foreign attorney and notification of your relatives. I truly hope you never feel the angst of your butt swinging in the wind subject to the rules and regulations of a soverignty that is less compassionate, less equitable, and less than honorable than those of the nation you choose to blaspheme. You know in that respect you have more in common with Al Qaeda than you do the American citizenry; ergo, you choose to seek unfair advantage of the protection of the quirks of the system which afford all the freedom to access it and seek its destruction. You sir are without honor and wreak of the stench of the sucubus nursing the teat of freedom while biting the hand which assures that freedom.
Get your damned facts straight bubba. Bush didn't execute anyone. That was done by judge and jury; hardly afforded to that poor schmuck trying to drum up cell phone sales. And no the country doesn't retaliate on behalf of every citizen that gets their puds in a twist; but, if you check the record you may just discover it is high time. I, one American, am damn tired of seeing our citizens treated like fair game in virtually every country we enter. I know folk charged with crimes ranging from petty theft to rape in virtually every third world nation you can name. Would you be surprised to learn that the two things these cases have in common are (1) there swas no crime committed and (2) the charges were motivated by the desire for a quick pay off. I hope your next trip over the pond you take time to reflect on the fact that (1) you are not protected by the laws of the United States. (2) if you should become involved in a traffic accident you may be subjected to the full legal system of the nation you are visiting (3) if your passport isn't a red one the only assistance you will receive from the US Embassy is the possible referral of a foreign attorney and notification of your relatives. I truly hope you never feel the angst of your butt swinging in the wind subject to the rules and regulations of a soverignty that is less compassionate, less equitable, and less than honorable than those of the nation you choose to blaspheme. You know in that respect you have more in common with Al Qaeda than you do the American citizenry; ergo, you choose to seek unfair advantage of the protection of the quirks of the system which afford all the freedom to access it and seek its destruction. You sir are without honor and wreak of the stench of the sucubus nursing the teat of freedom while biting the hand which assures that freedom.
Nemont
Well-known member
At least my definition doesn't involve cow crap.
Nemont
