Ryan Busse. Anyone?

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You're arguing that this is binary. Very little in this world is binary...


No. I pointing out the obvious.

If you believe that banning a gun= less dead, then the only way to end deaths from a gun, is no guns.

Would the Vegas shooting been ok if he sat up there with an xbolt and only got 20?

I don't believe banning "assault rifles" ends gun deaths. My proof, every gun death prior to Stoner.

But if you believe otherwise, then what is an acceptable number?

Kinda hard to have it both ways
 
No. I pointing out the obvious.

If you believe that banning a gun= less dead, then the only way to end deaths from a gun, is no guns.

Would the Vegas shooting been ok if he sat up there with an xbolt and only got 20?

I don't believe banning "assault rifles" ends gun deaths. My proof, every gun death prior to Stoner.

But if you believe otherwise, then what is an acceptable number?

Kinda hard to have it both ways

You're not pointing anything out, you're making an argument through reductive reasoning.

The war on drugs hasn't stopped drug use, so we should scrap it.

Seat belts and traffic laws haven't stopped vehicle deaths so we should throw them out.

The usfs hasn't stopped forest fires so we should get rid of it.

People still die in house fires, so obviously building codes are useless...

It's not about zero. It's about a reduction from current.
 
Show me the solution to evil, I'll sign on.

But I'd have to believe, those people, wouldn't have committed those murders, if there was just a gun reg to stop it. Or even if there wasn't an AR.

YOU TRULY believe an AR made them do it?

Really? If not for an AR, those folks would not of murdered?

Really?

Or your ok if they used a pistol. Or shotgun. Or a lever gun?

What's the magic number? Seriously.

How many people killed with a gun is ok? Because the logical conclusion of your position is a total gun ban. Otherwise your ok playing at the margins.
“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” That quote is in of its essence a path to the solution of evil. The quote is of dubious origins but a foundation for many great acts, including many of Teddy Roosevelts efforts at social and environmental change, protection, and growth.

Preventing one act of evil is a solution to that evil. So yes, the extra people killed by things that didn't have to be, they mattered. The families of Sandy Hook children killed empathize differently with those kill after the 10th victim. All hate of course what happened. The magic number is not hard for many to understand, it is every one that something could have been done something about. There will always be a line where this is blurry and, to your point, in some reducing to the absurd sense, that could sort have theoretically been all. But see that's where all of here agree, its not all. But its also not none, that where you perspective cannot prevail and will not prevail here. A total gun ban is actually not logical in the actual world, we agree that would be illogical.

And you know, I really am sorry to hear that you think others influence cannot matter. Because there's really only one way a person ultimately gets to that point, which is that they deeply and truly believe their influence has not mattered. But then they also tend to desperately be heard. We are hearing you, we are responding to you. Some agree with you. Some do not. I hope you can believe though, that your influence could be good and matter. I believe that would change, less importantly, how you are coming at this, and more importantly, how you come at other things in your life.

Dang I sound like such a goofball even to myself, but I can't help myself either :rolleyes:
 
You're not pointing anything out, you're making an argument through reductive reasoning.

The war on drugs hasn't stopped drug use, so we should scrap it.

Seat belts and traffic laws haven't stopped vehicle deaths so we should throw them out.

The usfs hasn't stopped forest fires so we should get rid of it.

People still die in house fires, so obviously building codes are useless...

It's not about zero. It's about a reduction from current.

Wait.

Drugs are illegal. There's laws against them. "Just say no"

Thank God!!! Imagine all the deaths otherwise🙄
 
“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” That quote is in of its essence a path to the solution of evil. The quote is of dubious origins but a foundation for many great acts, including many of Teddy Roosevelts efforts at social and environmental change, protection, and growth.

Preventing one act of evil is a solution to that evil. So yes, the extra people killed by things that didn't have to be, they mattered. The families of Sandy Hook children killed empathize differently with those kill after the 10th victim. All hate of course what happened. The magic number is not hard for many to understand, it is every one that something could have been done something about. There will always be a line where this is blurry and, to your point, in some reducing to the absurd sense, that could sort have theoretically been all. But see that's where all of here agree, its not all. But its also not none, that where you perspective cannot prevail and will not prevail here. A total gun ban is actually not logical in the actual world, we agree that would be illogical.

And you know, I really am sorry to hear that you think others influence cannot matter. Because there's really only one way a person ultimately gets to that point, which is that they deeply and truly believe their influence has not mattered. But then they also tend to desperately be heard. We are hearing you, we are responding to you. Some agree with you. Some do not. I hope you can believe though, that your influence could be good and matter. I believe that would change, less importantly, how you are coming at this, and more importantly, how you come at other things in your life.

Dang I sound like such a goofball even to myself, but I can't help myself either :rolleyes:

That group, that you said is showing leadership, and that Busse now draws a check from,

BELIEVES IN A TOTAL GUN BAN.

Kinda the whole point.

If Busse, whom I only recognized the name via BHA, become disillusioned with the NRA, or Kimber and quit, so what?

Had he wrote a book about that journey, it never would have been published, but even if it had, no one would read it.

What sells books, and further what sells him, is that jump TO GIFFORDS.

It's one thing to not like the NRA, I don't. I like public land, they don't by way of who they support. It's one thing to think open carry is stupid. I agree with that.

But you aren't pro gun, if you are with a group totally against them.

That's what sells the book(other than this thread). That's the "sex appeal".

Otherwise he's just another of the 70 million other gun owners who aren't NRA members.

"extra people killed by things that didn't have to be, they mattered"

You argue "extra". Kind of a weird place to plant a flag
 
Did you read the Giffords site? See any "boogey men" there?
No and no, because do you know where boogey men live? Where you believe they live. I don't want or need to go looking for them, because boogey men don't threaten me.

And here's the deal man, if all of these fears of taking my granddad's shotgun or my ability to defend myself are taken away, just like if hunting is ever taken away, guess what, I won't comply. And guess what, I will probably have consequences for that. But I've been hearing all of this personally for over 40 years and its gone the opposite of the fears. I was a gun salesman back then when concealed carry was even a thing. When I was young there was no carry at all. That's just one little example. Its just not at all a fact that gun right have had increasing infringement. We are much more liberated today than anytime in anyone I know's history.

You have been manipulated to be afraid. Okay, I can't help myself, one more story. In the early 2000's I was guiding a high up from the NRA, working with a group buttering them up so we could land a huge business opportunity with them. I just couldn't help myself and asked him, "do you guys really believe our guns will be taken away." His response, close to a quote as I can remember, "ha of course not, but if we don't say that people don't join and though that sounds bad, that's what keeps our gun rights." Logical actually. I get what he's saying. Don't even necessarily disagree. Absolutely cannot agree knowingly using creating fear in others as a means to accomplish an agenda. Especially since I believe, by faith, that such tactics are not only at best 2nd best but actually and ultimately harmful overall. And especially since, at least back then, the NRA was always invited to the table to discuss response after a mass shooting and rejected those opportunities.

Also, I didn't follow the money. I walked away from that opportunity. Others continued and messed up the deal so everyone lost.
 
Hossblur if you read the book it would be like you were staring at yourself in the mirror the entire time.
Your a perfect example of what he describes.
I'll notice you didn't answer.

Good to see there is only one tribe🙄
 
No and no, because do you know where boogey men live? Where you believe they live. I don't want or need to go looking for them, because boogey men don't threaten me.

And here's the deal man, if all of these fears of taking my granddad's shotgun or my ability to defend myself are taken away, just like if hunting is ever taken away, guess what, I won't comply. And guess what, I will probably have consequences for that. But I've been hearing all of this personally for over 40 years and its gone the opposite of the fears. I was a gun salesman back then when concealed carry was even a thing. When I was young there was no carry at all. That's just one little example. Its just not at all a fact that gun right have had increasing infringement. We are much more liberated today than anytime in anyone I know's history.

You have been manipulated to be afraid. Okay, I can't help myself, one more story. In the early 2000's I was guiding a high up from the NRA, working with a group buttering them up so we could land a huge business opportunity with them. I just couldn't help myself and asked him, "do you guys really believe our guns will be taken away." His response, close to a quote as I can remember, "ha of course not, but if we don't say that people don't join and though that sounds bad, that's what keeps our gun rights." Logical actually. I get what he's saying. Don't even necessarily disagree. Absolutely cannot agree knowingly using creating fear in others as a means to accomplish an agenda. Especially since I believe, by faith, that such tactics are not only at best 2nd best but actually and ultimately harmful overall. And especially since, at least back then, the NRA was always invited to the table to discuss response after a mass shooting and rejected those opportunities.

Also, I didn't follow the money. I walked away from that opportunity. Others continued and messed up the deal so everyone lost.

Afraid?

Of what? A one legged dude in a wheelchair sound asleep with a rifle on his lap with a covered scope?(see pic above)
 
You're not pointing anything out, you're making an argument through reductive reasoning.

The war on drugs hasn't stopped drug use, so we should scrap it.

Seat belts and traffic laws haven't stopped vehicle deaths so we should throw them out.

The usfs hasn't stopped forest fires so we should get rid of it.

People still die in house fires, so obviously building codes are useless...

It's not about zero. It's about a reduction from current.


Ok. Let's pretend you're right.

We ban AR. We ban high cap mags.

We do this to cut down on the numbers.

Then what?

You think Gifford's disbands?

You think they are ok with "a few less"?

You REALLY believe that?
 
That group, that you said is showing leadership, and that Busse now draws a check from,

BELIEVES IN A TOTAL GUN BAN.

Kinda the whole point.

If Busse, whom I only recognized the name via BHA, become disillusioned with the NRA, or Kimber and quit, so what?

Had he wrote a book about that journey, it never would have been published, but even if it had, no one would read it.

What sells books, and further what sells him, is that jump TO GIFFORDS.

It's one thing to not like the NRA, I don't. I like public land, they don't by way of who they support. It's one thing to think open carry is stupid. I agree with that.

But you aren't pro gun, if you are with a group totally against them.

That's what sells the book(other than this thread). That's the "sex appeal".

Otherwise he's just another of the 70 million other gun owners who aren't NRA members.

"extra people killed by things that didn't have to be, they mattered"

You argue "extra". Kind of a weird place to plant a flag
Lot to respond to, agreed, that "extra" is a terrible way to see things, just trying to make a point of how, as you say, this is bad, confusing, tough stuff. But again, you fixate on digging into examples, we are all not trying to write books here.

If you think Giffords are for a total gun ban, I can only think one of two things are true, you and I are seeing different sources because those I've seen make it VERY CLEAR that is not at all what they are for, or two, as it seems from you argument style that you have great difficulty with what is called dialectic thinking. Dialectic thinking is the ability to deal with ambiguity and seemingly competing idea without having a psychological freak out. Like knowing I am a good guy and that you are probably a good guy, while also knowing that I do some pretty crappy stuff some times and well, you likely do to.

So actually, you can be pro gun and be with a group that is totally against them, if that is even the case with Giffords. Its like when I was watching Jack Reacher yesterday and that guy asked him how can you eat that, and Reacher said like this, and popped it in his mouth, like that. You can just do it. Its easy. Because you are who you are not who they are.

And to your point of Busse joining the Giffords to get his message out and take a paycheck, well, yeah, if you believe someone is bad then that looks bad. But if you believe they have a message they believe in and believe needs to be shared then that's what people do. Like all people who effect change. Like I usually don't do. I just set alone a gripe. Do you ever do that? Feels like crap doesn't it. Glad Busse was willing to do what it takes to get his message out.

And again to attempt to be clear, I don't even really know that much about his message, mostly from what you are saying, I don't really care what his message is, and I won't even really spend much time trying to figure it out. BECAUSE NO MATTER WHAT IT IS, IT NOR HE WILL BE THE REASON SOMETHING I DON'T LIKE OR YOU DON'T LIKE HAPPENS.
 
Afraid?

Of what? A one legged dude in a wheelchair sound asleep with a rifle on his lap with a covered scope?(see pic above)
Ha, you are really good, you've made me smile. Your ability to totally ignore the point, even attempts to be empathetic and helpful, is really, quite devoted. I'll give up eventually, maybe even now, headed to an appointment, I didn't even shower for thanks to you, ha, chemical warfare!
 
How about a prescription?

This struck me.

Consistent with your distain for government intrusion into your life, why should live saving medicines be regulated and only obtained thru a doctor prescription?

Why cant't people decide for themselves whether to put a medicine into their body. I mean if they can put ivermectin into their body without asking anyone, why should other medicines be any different?
 
Show me a crime that was ever stopped by a law.

It’s an unprovable statement, either way. Last I checked, we don’t routinely poll folks about what laws they plan to break and how many they chose not to. It’s an inane argument, but yet it’s foundational to this train wreck.

By this logic, we get rid of all laws because they won’t stop anyone who wants to break them.

I was just told on here last week it would be easy to stop theft of catalytic converters IF it was really important. Hmmm…
 
No. I pointing out the obvious.

If you believe that banning a gun= less dead, then the only way to end deaths from a gun, is no guns.

Would the Vegas shooting been ok if he sat up there with an xbolt and only got 20?

I don't believe banning "assault rifles" ends gun deaths. My proof, every gun death prior to Stoner.

But if you believe otherwise, then what is an acceptable number?

Kinda hard to have it both ways
Would the Vegas shooting been OK if he only had an xbolt? Of course not, but (based on your assumption) 38 people would still be alive. Maybe a 100-200 not wounded? I don't think bump stocks are protected under the 2A. Do you? These are the kinds of conversations America needs to have without everyone going into their partisan bunker. IMO
 
Ha, you are really good, you've made me smile. Your ability to totally ignore the point, even attempts to be empathetic and helpful, is really, quite devoted. I'll give up eventually, maybe even now, headed to an appointment, I didn't even shower for thanks to you, ha, chemical warfare!
So we are pretending that what we all saw with our own eyes, didn't happen with those BLM protests?


Old boy rolled down one random day?

 
However, I believe taking up shop with Giffords Org as a senior advisor would put him in the center of efforts toward national gun registration and limiting second amendment rights as much as possible.
Or maybe he helps that organization better understand what "common sense" gun laws might actually mean in the real world. One of our problems with polarization is groups become totally intellectually segregated. I love when I see a known conservative added to an Ivy league department or a known liberal to a conservative think tank. The full spectrum of opinions needs to be in the room. I have not read his book so I can't say whether he is a gun banner or just a dedicated gun owner who is tired of the rambo-esque game being played by some on the "pro-2A" side - but if someone who actually knows how a gun works associates with Giffords or MDA then that is a step forward for them frankly.
 
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