Ryan Busse. Anyone?

[dannyb278]

I Hear what you're saying and my personal opinion may differ from the "Tactical Chad's".
IMO, subjective impressions by others are not the basis whether another is permitted his/her first and second amendment right.
That first amendment right is equal in every manner, by presenting, in public, his/her firearm. It's their "sign" that their second amendment is ever present.

It Means something to them. Whether you feel threatened by a law abiding American with an M4 slung or not does not negate his/her rights any more so than women with vaginas mounted to their heads, or Westborough Baptist protesting a military funeral.

Rights are not subjective to opposing opinions.

Though, as before, this is merely my opinion. Stomp on one person's right, stomps on all persons rights.

I may be totally off base here, but is open carry really a constitutional right afforded to every American? In my home state at least, you need to have a conceiled carry permit before you can open carry. Seems more like a state or municipality issue not specifically protected by the 2nd Amendment. An example of this would be the "No Guns in Town" laws of 1800s Tombstone.

If open carry is not a constitutional right, than it's simply allowed depending on the state or municipality.

And if it is simply allowed, it can be simply disallowed. Anyone who thinks that a bunch of J-Offs hiding behind the 2nd Amendment so they can intimidate fellow countrymen peacefully exercising there 1st Amendment rights won't eventually result in having that allowance taken away is dillusional. Especially with the direction the majority of the population seems to be going. Eventually people will have had enough of being intimidated by a fringe minority.

Just ask the fellas at the receiving end of the OK Corral. I believe that all started because they thought it was their right to open carry wherever they wanted, and to hell with other people's thoughts on the matter.

 

[Sytes]

Good Q beyond my knowledge, @dannyb278 . I'd be curious how this plays out.

I'd imagine if it's authorized in that state, people may exercise their first amendment right.

I think for the second amendment, specific to open carry, it has to be settled via SCOTUS... and that may actually occur with New York State Rifle & Pistol Association v. Keith Corlett, No. 20-843 as SCOTUS agreed to hear this case.

I think you're right though, myself backstepping a bit - we'll see with SCOTUS.
On grounds of 1A, I believe the person acting as a law abiding citizen may protest what s/he feels is his / her right to open carry, if permitted in that state.

@sapperJ24 , if a threat is made against another, "I'll f-ing shoot you" or "ill kill you" or some other direct threat made while in possession of a visible firearm, that's criminal. If a person angrily yells to f-k off and you fear him/her because they have a firearm visible, that is not a crime.
Subjective fear does not make another a criminal.

 

[sapperJ24]

Good Q beyond my knowledge, @dannyb278 . I'd be curious how this plays out.

I'd imagine if it's authorized in that state, people may exercise their first amendment right.

I think for the second amendment, specific to open carry, it has to be settled via SCOTUS... and that may actually occur with New York State Rifle & Pistol Association v. Keith Corlett, No. 20-843 as SCOTUS agreed to hear this case.

I think you're right though, myself backstepping a bit - we'll see with SCOTUS.
On grounds of 1A, I believe the person acting as a law abiding citizen may protest what s/he feels is his / her right to open carry, if permitted in that state.

@sapperJ24 , if a threat is made against another, "I'll f-ing shoot you" or "ill kill you" or some other direct threat made while in possession of a visible firearm, that's criminal. If a person angrily yells to f-k off and you fear him/her because they have a firearm visible, that is not a crime.
Subjective fear does not make another a criminal.

Thanks for the reply, we're probably generally in agreement.

 

[hossblur]

It's funny to hear the "tactical Chad" line. And I agree with it.

I wonder what all the sheep guides call the 99% of those in here that aren't, yet they rock $2000 camo "systems, and $500 mountaineering boots.

I laugh at all the dudes who blister just looking at a hand tool sporting their Carhartt outfits and Ariat work boots, so I can only imagine.

Intimidation, at a protest is an interesting concept to start with. Isn't the point of a protest to intimidate gov to act or perform a certain way? Otherwise you voice your displeasure at the ballot box. Intimidation by numbers. Or by media pressure. Or by economic pressure. I'm going to assume no one was shot. And that if a rifle came off a shoulder and was pointed at someone, there would be charges.

And I agree, the rifles were there to intimidate I'm sure. Look how well it worked in Busse case I guess.

 

[hossblur]

I may be totally off base here, but is open carry really a constitutional right afforded to every American? In my home state at least, you need to have a conceiled carry permit before you can open carry. Seems more like a state or municipality issue not specifically protected by the 2nd Amendment. An example of this would be the "No Guns in Town" laws of 1800s Tombstone.

If open carry is not a constitutional right, than it's simply allowed depending on the state or municipality.

And if it is simply allowed, it can be simply disallowed. Anyone who thinks that a bunch of J-Offs hiding behind the 2nd Amendment so they can intimidate fellow countrymen peacefully exercising there 1st Amendment rights won't eventually result in having that allowance taken away is dillusional. Especially with the direction the majority of the population seems to be going. Eventually people will have had enough of being intimidated by a fringe minority.

Just ask the fellas at the receiving end of the OK Corral. I believe that all started because they thought it was their right to open carry wherever they wanted, and to hell with other people's thoughts on the matter.

Umm. You should turn of the Kevin Costner. Newsflash, Montana ranches aren't run like Yellowstone either.

The truthful interpretation would be more akin to a group of Crips in a gun fight with private security employed by a drug cartel

No one on either side of that one, was exactly "with the law", nor I doubt interested in precedent.

Of course I could be wrong, in which case I look forward to my Sheriff pistol whipping suspects into unconsciousness, and town square hangings

 

[Deleted member 28227]

It's funny to hear the "tactical Chad" line. And I agree with it.

I made a related post on the rem lawsuit thread, as of 2/17/2022 my opinion is we don't need new laws about gun ownership.

We probably need to have a discussion about peaceful assembly and open carry of long guns.

We definitely need to have a conversation about marketing. If in 2022 anyone thinks marketing doesn't matter you have been living under a rock.

 

[hossblur]

I made a related post on the rem lawsuit thread, as of 2/17/2022 my opinion is we don't need new laws about gun ownership.

We probably need to have a discussion about peaceful assembly and open carry of long guns.

We definitely need to have a conversation about marketing. If in 2022 anyone thinks marketing doesn't matter you have been living under a rock.

On this we agree 100%. I'm fine publically shaming dudes who open carry, especially long guns.

While I don't believe for a second bushmaster advertising caused Sandy Hook, its hard to claim "responsible gun owner" pretending it's Call of Duty. Proof of this showing in this thread, where gun owners who know better, still are hard pressed to defend it.

 

[MTGomer]

Open carry isn’t for me but I think being “uncomfortable” by someone opening carrying is a “you” problem.
I think men putting 24” rims and rubber band sized tires on lifted trucks is ridiculous. I think women hiding their extra tummy fat in yoga pants pulled up to the top of their stomach is just as dumb. Both elicit an involuntary internal cringe from me, but it isn’t my place to tell them what to do, to make me happy.

I’ve never open carried aside from hunting, I don’t own any so called assault weapons and have touched an AR-15 less than 5 times in my life. I think I’ve shot one twice.

I have no problem with others doing it even if they look dumb, and 9 times out of 10, they do look dumb.

However, I can’t help but think of the utility of open carry in the summer of 2020. One one hand, we have Kyle Rittenhouse, defending businesses from arson, and using his weapon to protect his life from arsonists and looters, who also happened to be felons/pedophiles. This is the most extreme example. It’s hard to know how much violence and property damage was prevented because people with bad intentions could clearly see that others were well armed. (Think LA Riots rooftop Koreans)

On the other side, there was the vast majority of protesters that were peacefully airing their grievances with a system that is undoubtedly systemically racist. Ironically, drug and gun laws and their inequitable enforcement is largely responsible for this inequity.
Of these peaceful protesters, most were unarmed, but there was a noticeable faction that was armed-heavily. I never saw any videos of armed black protesters getting gassed, shot with water cannons, bean bags, or attacked by German shepherds. I wonder why that was?

Statistically, gun violence is fairly insignificant in our country aside from young African American, inner city males. How many young black men have been arrested and made criminals for something I do nearly every day- carrying a loaded handgun in my vehicle? This is a crime in many black communities. Where I live, and where people that look like me live, there are no laws against this. Even if there were, and where there is, what’s the chances that a police officer wants to search my vehicle if I get stopped for speeding, which I’m less likely to get stopped for anyway? No criminal record, nice vehicle, nice clothes, white. Almost zero.
Gun control proposes to expand upon policies that created these inner city conditions to begin with. I never hear any concern from the white Karens at Giffords about this.

How does one advocate for something that was born out of racism and has clearly had a stark racial outcome, with no clearly articulated idea on how whatever is next with gun control won’t result in the same?
I’m not calling anybody overtly racist, but at a minimum, there’s some white guys with nice, safe homes in all white communities in Montana that are more than comfortable to not have to think about the impacts of what policy they want will have on people that don’t look like, live like, nor have the resources that they do.

 

[3855WIN]

Ryan is a decent guy. We are about the same age. We both saw the gun culture change over the last 40 years. Back then people felt tactical weapons were for wars. Now the gun crowd wants to normalize carrying them around at protests, and if anyone suggests otherwise their career is ruined. Read the book. It's an inside story about how we got where we are.

Tactical weapons have been converted to other uses for years. Nothing new.

 

[3855WIN]

In the summer of 2020, Busse accepted a position as an adviser to Joe Biden’s presidential campaign, and this past summer, he was hired as a senior adviser to the gun violence prevention group Giffords. He wrote the book, he said, because Americans deserve to know how the country got so polarized, and to encourage the ocean of silent moderates that he believes are out there to find their voices.

Busse says he’s not sure what his life will be like when the book comes out. He worries about his two sons, ages 13 and 16, who are growing up in a community where guns and conservative — and sometimes extreme — politics are commonplace. “I worry that we’ve allowed them on this journey too much with us,” Sara Busse said. “I worry for their safety.” But Busse also said guns hold a special place in his boys’ lives, and it’s important to him to stand up for that, while keeping it apart from the far right ideology that they have become enmeshed with.

“For a certain part of the population, guns are symbols,” he said. “I think a lot of people don’t understand that. They are symbols of things that you wish were true, things that once were true and things you want to be true again.”

Busse is a turncoat. Easy to see.

 

[RobG]

Tactical weapons have been converted to other uses for years. Nothing new.

I don't know what you mean by years, but had you read the book you would know that the gun manufactures wouldn't even allow them to be displayed at their industry trade shows when he started. Now they are heavily promoted. Do you dispute those facts? I lived through them.

 

[Gerald Martin]

Busse is a turncoat. Easy to see.

So is Mike Pence…So is Rudy Guiliani…
So is General Mattis…and Jim Zumbo…

At least in Montana we can be so thankful we have some tried and true patriots like Matt Rosendale, Theresa Manzelli, and former Senator Fielder to protect the reality that life issues are simple and uncomplicated.

I vote we publicly tar and feather (or worse, as long as I don’t have to do it) anyone who doesn’t affirm my right to drive my Abrams tank wherever I wish. What part of “shall not be infringed” don’t some people understand?

 

[JLS]

Reinforce your bunker and close the door. If you entertain an outside ideology you might be labeled a turncoat.

 

[mtmuley]

Now they are heavily promoted. Do you dispute those facts? I lived through them.

Now they are popular. Like the Creedmoor. So, they are promoted. Oh dammit, that's marketing isn't it? mtmuley

 

[RobG]

Now they are popular. Like the Creedmoor. So, they are promoted. Oh dammit, that's marketing isn't it? mtmuley

That isn't even a close comparison. The gun industry didn't show or promote them out of a sense of responsibility.

 

[mtmuley]

That isn't even a close comparison. The gun industry didn't show or promote them out of a sense of responsibility.

Nope. I'm guessing increasing sales had something to do with it. And, is it a gun manufacturer's duty to promote responsibility? mtmuley

 

[RobG]

Nope. I'm guessing increasing sales had something to do with it. And, is it a gun manufacturer's duty to promote responsibility? mtmuley

Dood... Were you in the industry to see why it changed over the last 40 years? Did you even read the book?

 

[Sytes]

I don't know what you mean by years, but had you read the book you would know that the gun manufactures wouldn't even allow them to be displayed at their industry trade shows when he started. Now they are heavily promoted. Do you dispute those facts? I lived through them.

Rob, firearm conversions have been in place for a hell of a long time. Whether the specific firearm company touted the conversions OR the company who created the conversions touted their product is a play on words. Yes... I dispute Busse's allegations, based on his experience if you are claiming Busse made the assertion of "FACT" that tactical weapons have NOT been converted to other uses for years...

Allegations are far from fact. 1+1 = 3 is fact to some. Anyone riding Brandon's anti 2A train are intended to push the Brandon agenda... "fact" and "Politics" are opposing magnetic forces.

Firearms sold and displayed by firearm manufacturers are conversions of Maxim's invention. How far back? 1888... (as one example)
Charles Clawson - conversions of the military colt for civilian sale... Anyone have a Colt 1911? People aware conversions were implemented for military and civilian use for the 1911? I'd imagine most all of us, safety grip, etc...

Or here are a few gun manufacturer advertisements of military firearms for the civilians - of past days. American gun culture has been based on bringing military firearm design to the public market. This is not some b.s. 40 year change of society.









How about catering to the children... Military look-a-like firearms b.b. pew-pew.



can you imagine this ad by a gun manufacturer - in today's snowflake society?





Typically each war produces military personnel gone private contractor, developing conversions to enhance firearms sold to the public. Marketing 101. Just because Kimber and whomever wanted to advertise their firearm as they built it, does not negate private industry conversions over the course of a couple centuries!

Look up the history of Picatinny Arsenal. Military and civilian operations Their history is built on conversions of military firearms for military and civilian purchase.

Reinforce your bunker and close the door. If you entertain an outside ideology you might be labeled a turncoat.

We have our agreements and disagreements. The term "turncoat" is exactly how Busse personally describes his turn away from former gun lobby allies. If anything, he wears the term "Turncoat" with pride. If someone calls it out... so be it.

 

[RobG]

Rob, firearm conversions have been in place for a hell of a long time. Whether the specific firearm company touted the conversions OR the company who created the conversions touted their product is a play on words. Yes... I dispute Busse's allegations, based on his experience if you are claiming Busse made the assertion of "FACT" that tactical weapons have NOT been converted to other uses for years...

Allegations are far from fact. 1+1 = 3 is fact to some. Anyone riding Brandon's anti 2A train are intended to push the Brandon agenda... "fact" and "Politics" are opposing magnetic forces.

Firearms sold and displayed by firearm manufacturers are conversions of Maxim's invention. How far back? 1888... (as one example)
Charles Clawson - conversions of the military colt for civilian sale... Anyone have a Colt 1911? People aware conversions were implemented for military and civilian use for the 1911? I'd imagine most all of us, safety grip, etc...

Or here are a few gun manufacturer advertisements of military firearms for the civilians - of past days. American gun culture has been based on bringing military firearm design to the public market. This is not some b.s. 40 year change of society.

View attachment 212830

View attachment 212832

View attachment 212834

View attachment 212835

How about catering to the children... Military look-a-like firearms b.b. pew-pew.

View attachment 212838

can you imagine this ad by a gun manufacturer - in today's snowflake society?

View attachment 212839



Typically each war produces military personnel gone private contractor, developing conversions to enhance firearms sold to the public. Marketing 101. Just because Kimber and whomever wanted to advertise their firearm as they built it, does not negate private industry conversions over the course of a couple centuries!

Look up the history of Picatinny Arsenal. Military and civilian operations Their history is built on conversions of military firearms for military and civilian purchase.



We have our agreements and disagreements. The term "turncoat" is exactly how Busse personally describes his turn away from former gun lobby allies. If anything, he wears the term "Turncoat" with pride. If someone calls it out... so be it.

Who said anything about firearm's conversions? Not me.

 

[Sytes]

Who said anything about firearm's conversions? Not me.

Tactical weapons have been converted to other uses for years. Nothing new.

I don't know what you mean by years, but had you read the book you would know that the gun manufactures wouldn't even allow them to be displayed at their industry trade shows when he started. Now they are heavily promoted. Do you dispute those facts? I lived through them.