Rattlesnakes in Montana.

[YukonGold]

If it makes you feel better, the prairie rattlesnake (the only venomous snake in Montana) is likely the least dangerous of all the venomous snakes in the U.S. Less aggressive or likely to bite, and a dog (or a person) is much more likely to survive a bite than, say, if you got bit by any of the many rattlesnake species in the Southwest. Some of those bastards will even chase you.

I'd second running your dog through avoidance training when you get a chance.

 

[OntarioHunter]

If it makes you feel better, the prairie rattlesnake (the only venomous snake in Montana) is likely the least dangerous of all the venomous snakes in the U.S. Less aggressive or likely to bite, and a dog (or a person) is much more likely to survive a bite than, say, if you got bit by any of the many rattlesnake species in the Southwest. Some of those bastards will even chase you.

I'd second running your dog through avoidance training when you get a chance.

I believe there are timber rattlers in Montana but rare. I seem to recall a Kalispell editor photographed a couple many years ago. They are smaller than prairie rattler but much more venomous.

Edit: Well, looks like no timber rattlers in Montana. Not sure what George was looking at when he snapped that photo for his local rag. He was a notorious story teller.

 

[Hem]

Hem, do your internet homework on the vaccination. It was developed using venom from Eastern Diamondback and not generally useful across species. Or at any rate it's effectiveness on bites from other species is hotly debated. More importantly, the lab that developed it was shown to have doped the test results proving its effectiveness. From everything I've read and heard, the avoidance class is your best bet. As above mentioned, the results can vary according to dog (and avoidance instructor) but generally it seems to work well, especially with most hunting breeds.

I had a Lab get bit once in November on a cold moonlit night. Very freaky. I suspect I stepped on the snake walking around a rockpile on the way back to the vehicle. Pearl was right next to me. She was sick for a while but came out of it okay. Three separate overnights at the vets. My host's coworker was bit the same night when loading firewood. It can happen even late in the year ... but very unusual.

I hunt Montana Hi Line every year from end of October to first week in December and have actually only seen one rattler, a big one in a rancher's driveway. On hot days I hunt birds early in the morning or just before dark. Or stick to hunting wet low areas if I'm out during heat of the day.

It is the " concept" of vaccinations which people distrust.
I don't need to do internet research for cripes sake...where I live there are snakes galore. I see ample every year. Dogs get bit on a regular basis and the vaccinated dogs fare better. The local Veterinary where I take my dogs sees snake bite animals every year.
Think I will follow their advice....versus looking at the internet.

Good analogy.
I'm building an addition in a small nearby town.
Neighbors on four sides. Two were vaxxed, the other two were not. The two non vaxxed died of Covid.
Vaccinations give humans/ animals a fighting chance.

 

[OntarioHunter]

It is the " concept" of vaccinations which people distrust.
I don't need to do internet research for cripes sake...where I live there are snakes galore. I see ample every year. Dogs get bit on a regular basis and the vaccinated dogs fare better. The local Veterinary where I take my dogs sees snake bite animals every year.
Think I will follow their advice....versus looking at the internet.

Good analogy.
I'm building an addition in a small nearby town.
Neighbors on four sides. Two were vaxxed, the other two were not. The two non vaxxed died of Covid.
Vaccinations give humans/ animals a fighting chance.

Go talk to another vet and he may tell you the snakebite vax is bullshit. The advice you can find on the net is published by scientists and vets, not quack conspiracy theorists. I am COVID vaxed to the hilt so don't put me in the crowd of antivax nincompoops. But I'm also highly educated (PhD) with an extensive background in biology. If a lab fakes its test results (and Redstone did), there's usually a reason. If you hunt diamondback country, the vaccination MIGHT be worth the cost. But everyone I've talked to, including several Montana vets, say avoidance training is much more reliable for that environment. Actually, the most reliable. One vet I talked to, and apparently he is not alone, won't even stock the stuff. The thing to keep in mind about avoidance is it teaches dogs to also avoid the scent of rattlers. Helps keep them out of trouble before there is trouble. Also, you need to keep in mind you're asking vaccination advice from someone who's selling the product. Hmmmm.

 

[406dn]

The latest I have seen a snake in Montana was in December, hunting chukars, tight to the Wyoming state line. It was not a large one, pretty torpid, on a cool afternoon. A day later it was well below zero. I joked with my wife that that snake had better be close to where it wanted to hole up.

All of my dogs have received snake avoidance training. None of them have shown the slightest interest in a snake afterwards. Could they still get bit, yeah, but it is not high on my radar of concern.

My research concerning the vaccine has kept my money in my pocket. I am far from an anti-vaxxer. My horses and dogs receive multiple vaccines. I'm up to date on all of my shots. If you can't remember when you got your last tetanus shot, get one. I make certain of that one since I have horses. The snake vaccine as pointed out above has no solid data that shows it to be effective.

Snakes are not the biggest or most likely risk a hunting dog faces, in Montana anyway.

 

[Hem]

Go talk to another vet and he may tell you the snake vax is bullshit. The advice you can find on the net is published by scientists and vets, not quack conspiracy theorists. I am COVID vaxed to the hilt so don't put me in the crowd of antivax nincompoops. But I'm also highly educated (PhD) with an extensive background in biology. If a lab fakes its test results (and Redstone did), there's usually a reason. If you hunt diamondback country, the vaccination MIGHT be worth the cost. But everyone I've talked to, including several Montana vets, say avoidance training is much more reliable for that environment. Actually, the most reliable. One vet I talked to, and apparently he is not alone, won't even stock the stuff. The thing to keep in mind about avoidance is it teaches dogs to also avoid the scent of rattlers. Helps keep them out of trouble before there is trouble. Also, you need to keep in mind you're asking vaccination advice from someone who's selling the product. Hmmmm.

Nope.
Taking advice from a Vet with ACTUAL experience.
Not disputing avoidance training.
Not disputing Prairie rattlers are less aggressive than other rattlers.
Rattlers sometimes inject venom when they strike, most times not when in defensive mode...they prefer to save venom for prey. Young rattlers typically inject venom due to their immaturity.
Bottom line...why not vax if it adds a " measure" of protection? Bites, also can vary in severity depending on the bite location if venom is actually injected.
I know first hand of cows and horses that were bit, and died here in Montana. I also know of knuckleheads that played with rattlers and were bit and died.
The risk is all on the individual.
I'm keeping my head out of the sand..based on local history and experience. No PHD necessary.
The cost of the vaccine is a non issue. No evidence Vax is detrimental to the health of the dog.
Have a great day.

 

[manitou1]

Both of our vets here in WY recommend the rattlesnake vax as they see a lot of animals bitten.
Last year wehen we took our two pups in for the vaccine our vet had treated four dogs in one day for bites. Three were vaccinated and one was not. Guess which one died?
She also had one of her dogs bitten that same week.
Granted, this isn't a controlled study but it gives food for thought.
At $20, it can't hurt. The advice of two different vets that are well experienced with rattle snake bites and are located in different practices 40 miles apart gives me enough info to have my pups vaccinated.

 

[lifeisgoodsteve]

Sept 29
7200ft elevation in a tall grass meadow in SW MT.
He was pissed and big.

I was walking about 10 ft away on the trail.
Snow and multiple days of sub-freezing temps earlier in Sept, with snow still on ground in forest about 50 yards away.

Re. avoidance training, my lab did that and interestingly he was super wary from the start so they thought he had an encounter previously. Turns out he did come back from the fields one day with a swollen lower jaw, but since it didn't get too big and started to decrease next morning I didn't take him to a vet. Snake avoidance guys figured it was likely a "dry bite" where a young rattler had already spent his venom so my pup only got a tiny bit of residual left on the fangs.

If interested, here's a 1 minute video of my guy at the class:

1st bag is of rattlesnake skins, then there are live rattlers (muzzled) under each umbrella. There's a shock collar on the dogs for when the dog shows too much interest or too close, but my guys wouldn't get anywhere near them.

Bottom line, definitely recommend the class.

 

[Art Vandeley]

Saw 4 on the highway today.. most I’ve seen all year

 

[bwanakubwa]

Go talk to another vet and he may tell you the snakebite vax is bullshit. The advice you can find on the net is published by scientists and vets, not quack conspiracy theorists. I am COVID vaxed to the hilt so don't put me in the crowd of antivax nincompoops. But I'm also highly educated (PhD) with an extensive background in biology. If a lab fakes its test results (and Redstone did), there's usually a reason. If you hunt diamondback country, the vaccination MIGHT be worth the cost. But everyone I've talked to, including several Montana vets, say avoidance training is much more reliable for that environment. Actually, the most reliable. One vet I talked to, and apparently he is not alone, won't even stock the stuff. The thing to keep in mind about avoidance is it teaches dogs to also avoid the scent of rattlers. Helps keep them out of trouble before there is trouble. Also, you need to keep in mind you're asking vaccination advice from someone who's selling the product. Hmmmm.

That's funny I'm not covid vaxxed and my dogs are rattlesnake vaxxed. If I was to spend time doing research on a vaccine it would be the one I was being given, not my dogs. How many dogs have had heart conditions after the rattlesnake vaccine? Or any conditions for that matter?

 

[OntarioHunter]

That's funny I'm not covid vaxxed and my dogs are rattlesnake vaxxed. If I was to spend time doing research on a vaccine it would be the one I was being given, not my dogs. How many dogs have had heart conditions after the rattlesnake vaccine? Or any conditions for that matter?

I see. Don't care enough for your dogs to do your homework before giving THEM the needle. I did my homework before getting my Johnsons vax. IF I was a woman (I'm not) AND under age 65 (just turned seventy this week), the odds of me getting complications from the vax were one in 740,000. While hunting the refuge at Malta I talked to a respiratory therapist from Stevensville who had essentially been drafted to help with the COVID overload at the Billings hospital. He confirmed ALL his patients and those still on respirators or dying were not vaxed. 100%. Pretty shitty odds! The next day I made it a point to stop hunting and drive to Great Falls VA clinic for my booster. Since being vaxed I have traveled to the US probably a dozen times and twice to Africa. Guessing I've been in contact with COVID infected a hundred times (including everyone in my immediate family two blocks away). Never had a sniffle. Actually, with absolutely no reaction to vax or boosters I was concerned that it might not be working for me. Presumably my immune system was already tuned up though I don't know why. The only time I've been sick in the last four years was from African tick bite fever last month. Some symptoms similar to COVID but I tested negative repeatedly. Then I discovered the nasty bite site on the back of my calf. A short round of antibiotics and good as new.

 

[JLS]

 

[Nameless Range]

I'm at the South end of Broadwater. Usually by now snakes are in the vicinity of their den. This clears out alot of area.
I get more comfortable hunting my dog from here on out. That said, they are still out and about. I have encountered rattlers in to the second week of November in the Elkhorns. I think the grasslands are a safer bet then up in slightly higher rocky areas.

I pellet-gunned many rattlesnakes to death on the west side of the Elkhorns by Clancy, growing up.

But then I have never seen them 10 miles away in Jefferson City and I’ve lived here 10 years. They almost seem to have enclaves and you could find em anywhere.

 

[David658]

Curious...did you have a vaccinated dog get bitten, and then die?
What is the basis for your comment ?

Our vet in Oregon was once "the" doc researching snake/dog interactions at UofAz (Michael E Peterson, DVM, specialty toxicology, if your vet is under 50 likely wrote the book he/she used on the subject). Most interesting was that in over 2000 dogs bitten by snakes that they treated while he was teaching there, there were only two or three that died. His explanation was that most dogs don't even see the snake, run past it, the snake is surprised and bites defensively with a "dry" bite. On the other hand, if you have three weenie dogs surrounding the snake on the back porch, nothing good is on the way.

The vaccine is based on one rattler species, and when studying the venom of rattlesnakes you find that they venom composition varies geographically, and often quite significantly. Second, the vaccine is enzymatic, not an infectious agent. Vaccines don't work on poisons, they work against an infectious agent. You get your tetanus shot to protect you against the bug, so it can't set up and generate the poison that locks you up.

The concept is appealing. But you don't find blinded studies (we don't put dogs in cages to get bit and see if they die), and the scientific premise for the vaccine is off base. And, to repeat myself, a dog vaxxed againsts rattlers in this county very possibly and even likely is not going to be "vaccinated" against the venom in two counties over where you may have toted your dogs to go bird hunt. But people pay the $$ anyway, because it can't hurt, right? But it isn't going to do any good - all of the anectdotal statements that "got my dog the shot, he got, bit, took him to the vet, and he lived" do not come close to describing causation if they even describe a relationship. And, when you get the "vaxx" for your dog, you still are told to rush them to the vet for treatment if they get bit. Hmmmm....

Doc laughed at me when I called and asked about getting my dogs shots. He basically said if I want to donate the $ to the local vet and the snake oil maker, I could feel free to do so. But he said it was worse than useless - folks place faith in it, take their dogs out in places / seasons they shouldn't, and can potentially lose their dog (or at least get everyone's day ruined).

David
NM

 

[David658]

Can confirm October being pretty active for rattlers. The one in the picture below was in October out at Pompey's Pillar a couple years ago.

View attachment 242492

October is a real interesting month (as is September up here) - temps around the clock are tolerable for the snakes, and they don't have to hustle to shelter to avoid the heat of the summer sun like they do in July. I don't take my dogs out at lower altitudes until we've had a couple of hard frosts, or some sustained lower temps.

 

[Straight Arrow]

October is a real interesting month (as is September up here) - temps around the clock are tolerable for the snakes, and they don't have to hustle to shelter to avoid the heat of the summer sun like they do in July. I don't take my dogs out at lower altitudes until we've had a couple of hard frosts, or some sustained lower temps.

I can attest to that. Once while looking for a downed antelope near Terry in a prairie dog town, I looked down and right between my feet was a rattler. My hunting buddy was laughing, but not so much when I pointed to one near his feet. Luckily the cooler temps made them pretty slow so don't know how they could even take on a prairie dog.

 

[David658]

I can attest to that. Once while looking for a downed antelope near Terry in a prairie dog town, I looked down and right between my feet was a rattler. My hunting buddy was laughing, but not so much when I pointed to one near his feet. Luckily the cooler temps made them pretty slow so don't know how they could even take on a prairie dog.

An old Airedale breeder out here gave us advice - when the ants start working their hills, the ground is warm enough for the snakes to come out. When they stop working them in the fall, then you're good. Now, that might be NM logic, but it seems solid to me. Only one I have intersected with was on a 55 degree morning in April - similar weather to October here. I gathered up the dogs and headed up the mountain.

David
NM