Question For Kat

[Ben Lamb]

I agree as well that a lot of country should be left alone.

In respect to roadless areas - there's a lot of Roadless that comes up to the edge of a road (you have to draw a line somewhere) and could be treated to no more than 1/4 mile from the road or existing structures. The 10 mile project outside of Helena is more to treat fuel loads in a city's watershed than anything else, but again, we're running in to issues with elk security standards & roadless areas.

Same goes for the Benchmark project out of Choteau, which is seeking to remove timber from close to the Benchmark Road but is being litigated due to grizzly bear security standards.

 

[Nameless Range]

Yes, that is a good point. I support the Ten Mile Work. The country I object to is near Thunderbolt Mtn, Nevada Mtn.

That picture I posted above is of Chessman Reservoir ,where Helena gets its drinking water, looking down from the eastern face of Red Mountain. Very similar country to the rest of the divide. Anyone who lives in Helena should go out and hike the flume and see the mountain that feeds it. How Helena gets it drinking water is pretty cool.

Alright, I've hijacked the thread enough.

 

[Ben Lamb]

Thunderbolt & Nevada Mtns are incredible places. 110% with you there.

 

[BigHornRam]

I don't think you hijacked anything Nameless Range. Great comments and insight from someone who lives close to beetle killed NF. Checkout all the orange on Google Earth in the Bighole.


I don't think anything close to 5.1 million acres of Montana NF will be logged. It's just a starting point, in the process to determine what makes sense to log, and what doesn't.

 

[BigHornRam]

If using trees for biofuel doesn't pay for itself (financially or environmentally) it is simply welfare.

That's what the study is all about Rob. If it doesn't pay, it won't go forward. Also rotting wood does release CO2. Bio-char used as soil amendment, does not. It acts as a carbon storage.

 

[RobG]

That's what the study is all about Rob. If it doesn't pay, it won't go forward. Also rotting wood does release CO2. Bio-char used as soil amendment, does not. It acts as a carbon storage.

HAHA! Good one

I don't know much about the chemistry, just that it is hard to compete with fossil fuels for cost effectiveness.

 

[BigHornRam]

http://ravallirepublic.com/news/local/article_81d91fe0-d5ac-11df-819f-001cc4c03286.html

Here's an example where forest management was helpful in fighting a fire. Would be nice to utilize the non-merchantable trees in fuel reduction and thinning projects as a biomass source for energy production, instead of burning them in slash piles.

 

[BigHornRam]

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...rSovhyq2ygYGVn2KM3uKWUA&bvm=bv.65636070,d.aWw

Here is a paper describing the cool planet process. The paper is more geared towards using crop residue as a feed stock than wood bio-mass however. Wood bio-mass makes more sense to use than crop residue IMO.

 

[BigHornRam]

http://www.biorootenergy.com/

I sat in on a presentation by this guy at the Bitterroot National Forest office in Hamilton, a couple years ago. What do you think of this site, Kat?

 

[BigHornRam]

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...7oGoDg&usg=AFQjCNFbcBa8ttUMvqbW3KVADu3B77_e4A

Checkout the 2013 Tree Farm tour presented by Peter Kolb, which talks about various effects of the 2000 fire in the Laird Creek drainage, Shoot's. Starts on page 6

 

[katqanna]

BHR - Read the abstract on the paper and closing paragraph, printed it and will go through tonight. I am finishing a cartoon after lunch, but it looks good. I have researched Terra Preta, which has charcoal in it. I made natural char from pine beetle kill logs, broke it up and added it as part of my raised beds and the hugel kulture pits I made for my 3 sisters mounds of Mandan corn, Hidatsa beans and northern squash. The growth was awesome.

Looked at the biorootenergy link. That will take more time for me to digest. I am all about recycling and using waste materials for energy if they are not using more fossil fuels and clean water to produce.

Dont know if y'all saw the Missoulian article Bozeman man sues governor over proposed logging. Steve Kelly has filed suit on the 5.1 million acre logging proposal.

 

[sbhooper]

It would be great if there was a method to use all of those trees for bio-fuels, but I have my doubts as to the cost effectiveness of it. It seems like I read something about an outfit in Colorado trying it already and I have seen nothing more about it. I think it will go the way of ethanol, which is an unmitigated joke and scam. It takes more energy to produce it than it generates. On top of that, it is not as efficient as regular fuel, so in effect, more of it is necessary to get the same usage as real gasoline.

As far as it being renewable, it is an amazing concept. The pines do not grow fast enough to be super-efficient and renewable, but around here, Red Cedar is a plague and grows unbelievably fast. If this ever became doable, many ranchers here would be happy, happy, happy, as they could sell the trees instead of doing controlled burns just to reclaim the land.

They tried to get a cedar-fired boiler to heat the entire campus of an ag school south of here. Just for burning-not bio-fuel-it was not really workable, due to the fact that they would have to have everybody deliver the trees for next to nothing to make it work. Feasibility on any of that type of project is always an issue. The concepts sound good.

The damage done to the areas while harvesting the dead trees can only be mitigated if the roads are immediately closed and torn up after the harvest adding even more to the expense.

 

[roadhunter]

It would be great if there was a method to use all of those trees for bio-fuels, but I have my doubts as to the cost effectiveness of it. It seems like I read something about an outfit in Colorado trying it already and I have seen nothing more about it. I think it will go the way of ethanol, which is an unmitigated joke and scam. It takes more energy to produce it than it generates. On top of that, it is not as efficient as regular fuel, so in effect, more of it is necessary to get the same usage as real gasoline.

As far as it being renewable, it is an amazing concept. The pines do not grow fast enough to be super-efficient and renewable, but around here, Red Cedar is a plague and grows unbelievably fast. If this ever became doable, many ranchers here would be happy, happy, happy, as they could sell the trees instead of doing controlled burns just to reclaim the land.

They tried to get a cedar-fired boiler to heat the entire campus of an ag school south of here. Just for burning-not bio-fuel-it was not really workable, due to the fact that they would have to have everybody deliver the trees for next to nothing to make it work. Feasibility on any of that type of project is always an issue. The concepts sound good.

The damage done to the areas while harvesting the dead trees can only be mitigated if the roads are immediately closed and torn up after the harvest adding even more to the expense.

Chadron State has been doing this for over 20 years already.
http://www.hurstboiler.com/news/chadron_state_college

 

[sbhooper]

I believe that is where the other school got the idea. Chadron has made it work.

 

[BigHornRam]

I can save you some time on the Bioroot link, Kat. Jay is looking for investors, preferably ones that are bad at math.

 

[Jay Toups]

Yer abacus is busted

Interesting to read a disparaging comment about Bioroot Energy on a hunting site. RE the assertion that I'm looking for people who can't do math, let me ask: are you a potential investor, crack beancounter or chemical engineer?

In all fairness 30 minutes in a BNF Hamilton office room two years ago hearing the higher mixed alcohol fuel story at 10th-grade level in 15 slides in 20 minutes and 10 for QA for your first higher mixed alcohol rodeo neither prepared nor qualifies you to pass judgement on our "math." Belief might feel good but it ain't gospel.

If you would like to discuss, review and crunch real numbers and run what/if potentials for turning America's favorite carbon poop piles (there are many) into a liquid ALCOHOL fuel that doesn't suck that people and communities can drive to the bank till the end of time and maybe even use to help dig themselves out of inconvenient jams like changing/burning forests (hello Bitteroot!), high food prices (hello Iowa!) and those pesky steaming piles of solid, liquid and gaseous carbon wastes (hello Bakken oil patch!) in years ahead, feel free to contact me anytime.

At any rate and even if it's never, wish you nothin but the best. Have a great Montana weekend.

Jay
--
Jay Toups
CEO/Managing Partner
Bioroot Energy, LLC
(406) 349-2943
[email protected]
www.biorootenergy.com

 

[shoots-straight]

Welcome to Hunt Talk Jay!

 

[JoseCuervo]

Interesting to read a disparaging comment about Bioroot Energy on a hunting site. RE the assertion that I'm looking for people who can't do math, let me ask: are you a potential investor, crack beancounter or chemical engineer?

In all fairness 30 minutes in a BNF Hamilton office room two years ago hearing the higher mixed alcohol fuel story at 10th-grade level in 15 slides in 20 minutes and 10 for QA for your first higher mixed alcohol rodeo neither prepared nor qualifies you to pass judgement on our "math." Belief might feel good but it ain't gospel.

If you would like to discuss, review and crunch real numbers and run what/if potentials for turning America's favorite carbon poop piles (there are many) into a liquid ALCOHOL fuel that doesn't suck that people and communities can drive to the bank till the end of time and maybe even use to help dig themselves out of inconvenient jams like changing/burning forests (hello Bitteroot!), high food prices (hello Iowa!) and those pesky steaming piles of solid, liquid and gaseous carbon wastes (hello Bakken oil patch!) in years ahead, feel free to contact me anytime.

At any rate and even if it's never, wish you nothin but the best. Have a great Montana weekend.

Jay
--
Jay Toups
CEO/Managing Partner
Bioroot Energy, LLC
(406) 349-2943
[email protected]
www.biorootenergy.com

Jay,

Welcome to HuntTalk, and, there is a reason many refer to the above poster as BigWhore. His commentary and predictions on Natural Gas have been comical and wildly wrong.


Best of luck with your venture and hope it succeeds.

 

[BigHornRam]

Any serious investors in Biorootenergy yet Jay?

Jose's a big player, with questionable math skills. Send him a PM.