Project 2025 and Conservation

Elky Welky

Elky Welky

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 28, 2021
Messages
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Location
Montana
Trigger Warning: This post contains information that could be construed as political or partisan in nature. It's not. I don't really want a bunch of people to point out how much the former and likely future president has been trying to distance himself from this effort. Instead, please take this at face value and assess what the drafters of this document want, and what that could mean.

As Project 2025 has come into focus in the news cycle, and was drafted by many former or future advisors to a president, it is worth looking specifically at what this blueprint would seek to accomplish. Whether it ultimately becomes a politician or party's platform, there are still many, many people that espouse the ideas contained in this document, and this response gives a good overview of issues we, as people who care about public lands, waters, and wildlife, will need to watch with vigilance:

https://www.backcountryhunters.org/what_project_2025_means_for_public_lands_and_waters
 
I'm really glad to be in the final few years of work, nearly 4 decades of working on behalf of public lands is enough. The constant barrage of shit thrown at them, surprised things have lasted as long as they have.

Also very happy that I have way more hunts and years of hunting in the rear view than the windshield.

We are NOT going to leave wildlife or public lands in better shape for future generations, too much working against them.
 
BuzzH said:
I'm really glad to be in the final few years of work, nearly 4 decades of working on behalf of public lands is enough. The constant barrage of shit thrown at them, surprised things have lasted as long as they have.

Also very happy that I have way more hunts and years of hunting in the rear view than the windshield.

We are NOT going to leave wildlife or public lands in better shape for future generations, too much working against them.
Click to expand...
The last few weeks have not led me to be all that hopeful. But my far fewer years than you of hunting have still taught me that even when all hope seems lost, circumstances can change for the better in an instant.

Just gotta keep going.
 
Elky Welky said:
The last few weeks have not led me to be all that hopeful. But my far fewer years than you of hunting have still taught me that even when all hope seems lost, circumstances can change for the better in an instant.

Just gotta keep going.
Click to expand...
It's not going to be better overall. Climate is already creating winners and losers and that has only accelerated in my lifetime. Human encroachment, development of resources, over grazing, weeds, droughts, water deficits, etc. etc. Add in a big chunk of the hunting community, and public at large, being all in favor of privatizing everything wildlife and public land related to make a profit, not a bright future. I think we need to be realistic, its not going to be better. I think we'll sidestep it for a while, but most don't have the stomach, spine, or ability to make a difference.

All a person has to do is look around and go back 20-40 years ago and look at some aerial imagery, look at hunting license numbers, fishing limits, etc. etc. etc. Very, very little is getting better for the public land Sporting community.

I hate to be negative, but the tea leaves I'm reading aren't painting a pretty picture.
 
BuzzH said:
It's not going to be better overall. Climate is already creating winners and losers and that has only accelerated in my lifetime. Human encroachment, development of resources, over grazing, weeds, droughts, water deficits, etc. etc. Add in a big chunk of the hunting community, and public at large, being all in favor of privatizing everything wildlife and public land related to make a profit, not a bright future. I think we need to be realistic, its not going to be better. I think we'll sidestep it for a while, but most don't have the stomach, spine, or ability to make a difference.

All a person has to do is look around and go back 20-40 years ago and look at some aerial imagery, look at hunting license numbers, fishing limits, etc. etc. etc. Very, very little is getting better for the public land Sporting community.

I hate to be negative, but the tea leaves I'm reading aren't painting a pretty picture.
Click to expand...
Or, go back 100 years. How were our elk, deer, bison, etc. doing then? Market hunted almost to extinction, yet brought back from the dead because of the work of passionate conservationists that came before us, who stood up in the face of horrific environmental destruction, wealthy extractive industries operating with zero standards, logging, mines, cattle, etc. Everything was against them, yet here we are.

Yes, the outlook is bleak right now. But what’s our alternative? Give up? Throw up our hands and say, “welp, we tried.” and insult the memory of those that came before us? Give up on the future and those that come after us?

Negate all the work you’ve done?
 
Elky Welky said:
Or, go back 100 years. How were our elk, deer, bison, etc. doing then? Market hunted almost to extinction, yet brought back from the dead because of the work of passionate conservationists that came before us, who stood up in the face of horrific environmental destruction, wealthy extractive industries operating with zero standards, logging, mines, cattle, etc. Everything was against them, yet here we are.

Yes, the outlook is bleak right now. But what’s our alternative? Give up? Throw up our hands and say, “welp, we tried.” and insult the memory of those that came before us? Give up on the future and those that come after us?

Negate all the work you’ve done?
Click to expand...
First time in that 100 years we're 100% going to leave things worse than we found it.

It's just the way it is.

There's just no way to do more with less, it's simple math and reality. Too little habitat, too many people, too much development, etc. etc.

It's disappointing for sure, I'm not happy about it, but I'm also inclined to live in reality rather than Fantasyland.
 
BuzzH said:
First time in that 100 years we're 100% going to leave things worse than we found it.

It's just the way it is.

There's just no way to do more with less, it's simple math and reality. Too little habitat, too many people, too much development, etc. etc.

It's disappointing for sure, I'm not happy about it, but I'm also inclined to live in reality rather than Fantasyland.
Click to expand...

I, too, am inclined to live in reality. That’s why I posted this thread, to point to the many fights we probably have before us. But living in reality doesn’t require wallowing in self pity and pessimism. You haven’t answered the questions in my above post: how does that outlook help?
 
I will further extend my offer to hunter host up here for a $2000 fee and first shot at Bigfoot if we see him.
 
BuzzH said:
I'm really glad to be in the final few years of work, nearly 4 decades of working on behalf of public lands is enough. The constant barrage of shit thrown at them, surprised things have lasted as long as they have.

Also very happy that I have way more hunts and years of hunting in the rear view than the windshield.

We are NOT going to leave wildlife or public lands in better shape for future generations, too much working against them.
Click to expand...
Fight the good fight buzz
 
Elky Welky said:
Or, go back 100 years. How were our elk, deer, bison, etc. doing then? Market hunted almost to extinction, yet brought back from the dead because of the work of passionate conservationists that came before us, who stood up in the face of horrific environmental destruction, wealthy extractive industries operating with zero standards, logging, mines, cattle, etc. Everything was against them, yet here we are.

Yes, the outlook is bleak right now. But what’s our alternative? Give up? Throw up our hands and say, “welp, we tried.” and insult the memory of those that came before us? Give up on the future and those that come after us?

Negate all the work you’ve done?
Click to expand...
I’m not as doom and gloom as Buzz as I think there are a lot of smart, passionate people doing work but You have to look beyond the species that you hunt or desire to hunt. Insects, amphibians, mussels, birds, fish, and many species of small mammals are all on the verge collapse right now!
 
jrabq said:
Sounds good to me, especially year round McRib! 😀
View attachment 332934
Click to expand...
  • Dismantling the America the Beautiful initiative to conserve 30% of our lands and waters by 2030 and reviewing all resource management plans finalized in the previous four years to consider adopting less conservation-oriented alternatives.

  • Allowing state and local governments to block the acquisition of willingly sold private lands through the Land and Water Conservation Fund.




  • Approving the Ambler Road, a private 211-mile corridor across the southern Brooks Range of Alaska.


  • Revoking Alaska BLM Public Land Orders, opening 28 million acres of public lands to development that have remained in conservation status since 1971.


  • Reinstating the Alaska Roadless Rule, which would, once again, remove protection for more than 9 million acres of the Tongass National Forest.
 
The conservation of America's natural resources has always been a struggle. The movement rose up from the overuse of forests & wildlife. It was born as an act of rebellion against the wasteful mindset of the times, and it took generations to mainstream into our common ethos. When Theodore Roosevelt went on safari, a magazine ran a cartoon saying that "Wall Street expects every lion to do it's duty," meaning to eat the grand conservationist and end his war against waste.

1721135671339.png

While there are new challenges every day, the struggle fundamentally remains the same. There are, however, opportunities for hunter-conservationists to grow the tent. That means uncomfortable alliances with interests who may have differences of opinion on some management issues, but it also means there is opportunity to grow the movement and build better machines to withstand the constant push to develop more. Struggle never ends, the players just shift bases. Guys like @BuzzH have been on the front lines long enough to see the losses and the wins and I'm in that camp. It gets to be tough after a while, always suiting up. Passing the knowledge of how to find a win is crucial for the next generation of advocates behind the old Gen-Xer's like Buzz & I. We need to keep preaching hope, not defeat though. We also need to reassess the strategies and tactics that haven't produced the results desired and change - not double down on what hasn't worked.

“If America could be, once again, a nation of self-reliant farmers, craftsmen, hunters, ranchers, and artists, then the rich would have little power to dominate others. Neither to serve nor to rule: That was the American dream.”
― Edward Abbey
Click to expand...

The grandiose plans of the political bubble-people always get met with the stone-cold reality of the American citizenry. Finally, ther eis one quote that every single one of us who cares about the conservation of wildlife and land needs to remember:

"There are more of us." Lando Calrissian.

1721137365191.png

Build bigger circles, adopt other stakeholders as your tribe. Make "your people" as broad and wide as possible and you will never face the oncoming struggle alone. Keep preaching hope, @Elky Welky !
 
Buzz is mostly right, I've been fighting the "Good fight" for over 40 years now, and in that time we've lost 100's of thousands of mule deer, sage grouse that use flush from the roads in eastern Montana in so huge of large groups that they would bore you. Elk herds in Western Montana that wore the ground out to more of a cattle feed lot than a Wilderness area. You could go to your favorite fishing hole a week later to work that 5 lb brown you'd missed and no human had fished there in that week. Miles of Wilderness forest surrounding miles of designated Wilderness. The assault on our natural resources is real, and I fear the 2%ers are going to get the last thing that they don't have from us. Our public lands.

The resolve to fight the good fight has eroded by the distractions coming from living life. Maybe there's those in a position to do so? I don't know but less time is available to fight unless you're retired.

The system is rigged to keep you distracted and not let you in. Just recently we found out the the Beaverhead-Deerlodge NF super had issued extra permits for outfitting in 2017 without following any guidelines or following basic rules to do so. Now they are trying to push those extra outfitting days through with a Categorical exclusion ruling. MT FW&P's creating "working groups they can control, helps keeping the public at bay. My point is not enough people watching and doing something to combat the bs that's going on. The money to made is enough to outweigh the detractors. It's a sad state of affairs' we're in and barring a revolution fighting for those "SMALL" things I fear the end is near. Oh you'll be tossed a bone now and again to keep you satisfied.

NOTE: how many special tags have we lost in my 40 years vs now? Amount of people putting in vs those minimal tags? For what ever the reasons we have a lot less now. Yes more Elk, but on private vs public lands. Not weird considering the amount of recreational use now on those shared lands.

Bio's are taught to look back at the "5 year average" to manage wildlife. even though those numbers are continually going downward.

Legislation to control the publics wildlife has been detrimental to those herds. Putting up sideboards that make it tough to manage in any positive fashion.

Sorry guys, I've been on this site for a long time preaching the similar things and every time I had to defend the hypothesis I was preaching. Most if not all have come to pass.

At home we have combated the forces that be to only stave off the inevitable.

My lifetime of hunting is slowing now and I see nothing good for the future generations.

You can't vote for the very people that are going to commercialize the very heritage we all love, and then complain about the outcomes. Voting for every R or D in your area has consequences. Mostly R's in Montana, whether they have brain cells or not.

But I've said this before. Sorry for the rant.

William Perry Pendley wrote the document giving direction to the Department of Interior for "Project 2025" .

I'll leave this here for you to read. https://www.cpr.org/2020/06/26/trum...iam-perry-pendley-to-permanently-run-the-blm/
 
Ben Lamb said:
The conservation of America's natural resources has always been a struggle. The movement rose up from the overuse of forests & wildlife. It was born as an act of rebellion against the wasteful mindset of the times, and it took generations to mainstream into our common ethos. When Theodore Roosevelt went on safari, a magazine ran a cartoon saying that "Wall Street expects every lion to do it's duty," meaning to eat the grand conservationist and end his war against waste.

View attachment 332955

While there are new challenges every day, the struggle fundamentally remains the same. There are, however, opportunities for hunter-conservationists to grow the tent. That means uncomfortable alliances with interests who may have differences of opinion on some management issues, but it also means there is opportunity to grow the movement and build better machines to withstand the constant push to develop more. Struggle never ends, the players just shift bases. Guys like @BuzzH have been on the front lines long enough to see the losses and the wins and I'm in that camp. It gets to be tough after a while, always suiting up. Passing the knowledge of how to find a win is crucial for the next generation of advocates behind the old Gen-Xer's like Buzz & I. We need to keep preaching hope, not defeat though. We also need to reassess the strategies and tactics that haven't produced the results desired and change - not double down on what hasn't worked.



The grandiose plans of the political bubble-people always get met with the stone-cold reality of the American citizenry. Finally, ther eis one quote that every single one of us who cares about the conservation of wildlife and land needs to remember:

"There are more of us." Lando Calrissian.

View attachment 332957

Build bigger circles, adopt other stakeholders as your tribe. Make "your people" as broad and wide as possible and you will never face the oncoming struggle alone. Keep preaching hope, @Elky Welky !
Click to expand...

I don't whinge too much about the Project 2025 stuff. Former President Trump himself has said he doesn't like many of the ideas in it, and at this point it's clearly being used as a motivational vehicle to get the vote out. That's not to say many of the ideas within it aren't concerning, but at base, it's a wishlist that's always existed just now formalized by a minority.

That is a really great post, @Ben Lamb . There's a part of me that if I had to coldly put money on the future and what's most likely, it's not good. But there's a part of me that would do that for dang near everything good. So what?

Juxtaposed against you or Buzz or a thousand others, I have done nothing and am a white belt, but there's no point to any of this without hope and attempts to make things better, no matter how much of it just feels like insufficient dinks and dunks in the face of widespread trends heading the wrong direction. Hard work that's mostly unsatisfying, many losses and some wins, loneliness - and when it burns one out they've earned their rest. You and I have a mutual friend, who is a mentor to me in the world of conservation. We serve on a couple boards/working groups together. More than once, I have watched groups try to navigate an issue, or watched someone antagonistic to the larger goals show up and try to sway. There's a modern attitude of "F%$k that", I think borne of the internet, that's tempting to revert to, and at times I was at a loss for how to proceed. But then, I watch him just treat someone like a human. Sit down and talk to them, polite and professional, ask questions, build a relationship. I've seen courses change. They are small-scale to be clear, but it's so damn obvious there is no persuasion without respect, and there is no change without persuasion. I'm grateful to learn the attitude and lessons from him. "Bigger circles" - it's the only way.

120 years ago there were no elk or deer in the hills in which I live - all killed for market or food. No predators on the landscape - all poisoned. No fish in the creeks - all toxic or placer mined or dredged to near-oblivion. A conservationist at that time would've been more justified to despair than those today. And yet this evening my kids and I can go catch fish in the creek and probably will. This fall my son will chase what is hopefully his first deer. I'm gonna try and trap a bobcat in December. "Near-oblivion" and oblivion are two different things, and there's always hope requiring a hell of a lot of hard work, and it is worth doing.
 
I'm just too tired to get as involved as I once was.
Every project or plan was sidetracked and abandoned.
A handful are SOP...and they are on the block to be bought.

I fear I am just going to reside and live my life out watching. I have my own wildlife and restoration projects.
 
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