Project 2025 and Conservation

[Forkyfinder]

Maybe. But it seems hard to believe California is just an oversimplification. Then Texas does the same thing.

If we want progress, people need to be as creative in their solutions as they are in their criticisms.

The entire system thats 100+ years old is designed for generation - transmission - and distribution.

When a distribution line is taking charge in too many places you can create power flow problems in a system that was designed to work one way. If it were plumbing - itd be like hoping a check valve could work either direction. The push towards storage is to reduce the generation that gets put on distribution lines.

 

[Bonasababy]

Taxes are used to influence behavior. Trying to use taxes to influence the behavior of someone living paycheck to paycheck is a sure way to go nowhere. To be clear, this topic isn't about the poor and middle class or the rich benefitting more. To borrow from BHR, anyone with a 5th grade education can see The Heritage Foundation doesn't care about the citizens earning an average income or below. It is about the outrage around change.

If you keep asking questions sometimes that answers tell you where someone is really coming from, but yeah I didn't think it was actually tax relief that was the concern.

 

[Hilljackoutlaw]

As I pointed out, it worked for California enough that they had to cut net-metering and instead work on installing battery storage to capture the excess electricity.

When it comes to protecting public land, or even saving good private habitat, from large-scale energy development, I don't want to hear why things can't be done. Particularly when a lot of those "obstacles" are self-created.

How do we get these batteries to store electricity?

 

[Bonasababy]

Lots of comments on solar on rooftops or urban solar in lieu of grid scale. As ive said previously - thats not a solution that works for efficiency, safety, maintenance, or ownership the way that our power grid works from a technical, regulatory, and financial standpoint.

Based on what exactly? That would sure be news to people I know who have had panels in use for many years already. And yes we get some snow here. And we get more than enough sun, despite what some here are saying.

The only problem I have seen--and I am not kidding or exagerating here--is a local electric coop that decided against the advice of professional solar designer and instead of putting panels on a roof or cutting a few trees to free up sun exposure--put them in the shadow of some large pines.



Then they tracked rate of return and gladly used that to tell coop members how low the rate of return on solar was.

 

[SAJ-99]

The entire system thats 100+ years old is designed for generation - transmission - and distribution.

When a distribution line is taking charge in too many places you can create power flow problems in a system that was designed to work one way. If it were plumbing - itd be like hoping a check valve could work either direction. The push towards storage is to reduce the generation that gets put on distribution lines.

You have some expertise on this so I trust you. And I do get it. Electricity is supposed to flow in one direction. It is why large-scale solar is cheaper, because it's at the transmission point and not the end use point. How about every acre of public used for this stuff is offset with a purchase of another acre so net loss is zero?
Batteries are still cheaper than peaking nat gas and can be placed at the right point of the grid. Maybe tax advantage individual storage (of course this disadvantages the poor again).

 

[BigHornRam]

My point is that it "makes the most sense" based on when the power is being consumed and generated.

I.e. if the spring and fall are windy - but power use is very low, it might make more financial sense to put in solar where use and generation needs would follow.

The problem with solar is you have to build your peak generating capabilites as if the solar doesn't exists, because at night time and on cloudy days, it doesn't generate electricity. Sure you can store excess solar generated electricity in batteries to use when the sun is not shining. Off grid solar applications do this all the time. The problem with that is battery storage is extremely expensive.

Solar only works commercially when it is heavy subsidized. Right now it is a boutique energy source at best.

 

[Forkyfinder]

The problem with solar is you have to build your peak generating capabilites as if the solar doesn't exists, because at night time and on cloudy days, it doesn't generate electricity. Sure you can store excess solar generated electricity in batteries to use when the sun is not shining. Off grid solar applications do this all the time. The problem with that is battery storage is extremely expensive.

Solar only works commercially when it is heavy subsidized. Right now it is a boutique energy source at best.

Its more complicated than that. From a financial model perspective - the upfront cost of a solar plant is much higher - but you get to generate it for nothing except maintenance and low operation costs (low employee count) and no fuel for 30-40 years. Basically high upfront cost for lower cost later. No mine to renogatiate with. No union. No railroad. No nat gas supplier to contract with. Etc.

Power is sold on a 24 hr and 48 hr market. Because of that - a renewable facility will bid 0 to sell it because the lowest non-zero bid is the compensation for that power. So if theres 10 watts to generate for the day - and theres bids for 5 w (0$) solar, 5 (6$) w nat gas, 5 (7) w nuclear, and 5 w (10$) coal - solar and nat gas take the generstion needs and the other generators are left out entirely for 6$ plus solar gets a "production tax credit" thats varied by admin/legislation from 2c per kwh to .4 per kwh.

And no disagreement that we need a reliable source of power for when the sun doesnt shine and the wind doesnt blow.

 

[BigHornRam]

Its more complicated than that. From a financial model perspective - the upfront cost of a solar plant is much higher - but you get to generate it for nothing except maintenance and low operation costs (low employee count) and no fuel for 30-40 years. Basically high upfront cost for lower cost later. No mine to renogatiate with. No union. No railroad. No nat gas supplier to contract with. Etc.

Power is sold on a 24 hr and 48 hr market. Because of that - a renewable facility will bid 0 to sell it because the lowest non-zero bid is the compensation for that power. So if theres 10 watts to generate for the day - and theres bids for 5 w (0$) solar, 5 (6$) w nat gas, 5 (7) w nuclear, and 5 w (10$) coal - solar and nat gas take the generstion needs and the other generators are left out entirely for 6$ plus solar gets a "production tax credit" thats varied by admin/legislation from 2c per kwh to .4 per kwh.

Land leases are an annual cost. 5k to 10k an acre. Likely why some want to build solar farms on public land. It's cheaper. Panels also have around a 25 year life expectancy. The production tax credit is another subsidie to help it be "competitive".

 

[SD_Prairie_Goat]

The entire system thats 100+ years old is designed for generation - transmission - and distribution.

When a distribution line is taking charge in too many places you can create power flow problems in a system that was designed to work one way. If it were plumbing - itd be like hoping a check valve could work either direction. The push towards storage is to reduce the generation that gets put on distribution lines.

Disagree. Our grid is built almost entirely of bidirectional components and designs. Power flows where it is required, which in many case may be opposite what you'd expect. In all reality, you need modeling software like easy power, etc. to properly model even a small grid with accuracy, or under multiple changing conditions.

Also, don't understand your check valve comment. The only electrical component to act in that way would be a diode which doesn't make sense.


Interesting article for those curious: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1155/2020/4831434


Most current research is pointing towards smart inverter technology being the key to grid stability with PV in particular. The biggest concern in the industry has always been frequency stability if we cross the 30% renewable threshold. But all the research coming out points that smart inverters can solve these issues. With frequency it comes down to the inverters creating artificial impedance to mimic rotational inertia which I find fascinating. But other concerns are addressed by smart inverters.

 

[Forkyfinder]

Land leases are an annual cost. 5k to 10k an acre. Likely why some want to build solar farms on public land. It's cheaper. Panels also have around a 25 year life expectancy. The production tax credit is another subsidie to help it be "competitive".

LONGi Solar Panel Expert Review

LONGI Review | Discover a more efficient future with Effective Home. Explore our innovative services today!

effectivehome.co.uk

Land lease is an annual cost - it is on federal land too for more than you might expect. You are incorrect about "panel life"

 

[BigHornRam]

Also, insurance rates are soaring, raising the cost of electricity produced by industrial solar generation facilities.

Baseball-Size Hail Makes Insuring Solar and Wind Farms Pricier

The Scottsbluff solar farm in western Nebraska was built to withstand most hailstones. But the icy pellets that rained down in late June were bigger than

www.insurancejournal.com

"Clean energy developers are starting to factor higher insurance costs into their business plans. SB Energy used to model $3 a kilowatt to insure a typical US solar farm, according to Jaime Carlson, head of commercialization.

Now, the company is seeing closer to $4 to $5 a kilowatt for less coverage, Carlson said. But in areas particularly prone to natural disasters, the cost estimates can be five to six times as high."

 

[Forkyfinder]

All so, insurance rates are soaring, raising the cost of electricity produced by industrial solar generation facilities.

Baseball-Size Hail Makes Insuring Solar and Wind Farms Pricier

The Scottsbluff solar farm in western Nebraska was built to withstand most hailstones. But the icy pellets that rained down in late June were bigger than

www.insurancejournal.com

"Clean energy developers are starting to factor higher insurance costs into their business plans. SB Energy used to model $3 a kilowatt to insure a typical US solar farm, according to Jaime Carlson, head of commercialization.

Now, the company is seeing closer to $4 to $5 a kilowatt for less coverage, Carlson said. But in areas particularly prone to natural disasters, the cost estimates can be five to six times as high."

Would china be installing them?

The insurance costs going up is the free market in effect - and the amount your talking isnt significant.

Also- the industry is addressing those concerns with new panel tracker tech. https://www.vde.com/en/vde-americas/newsroom/240221-hail-stow-tech-memo

 

[BigHornRam]

LONGi Solar Panel Expert Review

LONGI Review | Discover a more efficient future with Effective Home. Explore our innovative services today!

effectivehome.co.uk

Land lease is an annual cost - it is on federal land too for more than you might expect. You are incorrect about "panel life"

25 to 30 years.

How Long Do Solar Panels Last?

Get expert advice on improvements to your home, including design tips, how much you'd expect to pay for a pro and what to ask when hiring experts.

www.forbes.com

 

[BigHornRam]

Would china be installing them?

The insurance costs going up is the free market in effect - and the amount your talking isnt significant.

China is building ghost cities. I would not use them for sound economic advice.
Edit: I wouldn't put any value on a Longi or
any other Chinese manufactured Solar panel warrenty.

Insurance costs are definitely going up. Inflation.

 

[Forkyfinder]

25 to 30 years.

How Long Do Solar Panels Last?

Get expert advice on improvements to your home, including design tips, how much you'd expect to pay for a pro and what to ask when hiring experts.

www.forbes.com

Forbes, or the manufacturers?

Most are rated for 80% output+ after 25 years.

edit: Since you dont trust things not made in america - look at mission solar modules. 84.8% generation at 25 years and made in san antonio texas

Datasheets & Warranty - Mission Solar

www.missionsolar.com

 

[SAJ-99]

Insurance costs are definitely going up. Inflation.

Same thing affects current producers, just as a second derivative impact.
We need to think about what we want the grid to be in 100yrs. We are not going to make significant changes in 3-5yrs. I don't want my grandchildren complaining about the lack of public land because we didn't want people to pay $12/m more for electric. But I am also practical.

Regardless of what an individual prefers, the cost of building any type of additional capacity is very high. Compare new nuclear or even nat gas to new solar or wind, even without subsidies. We aren't paying enough for electricity. Cans are being kicked. In many cases the companies themselves are installing their own electrical sources and storage, which I think we would agree is a good thing. But if that fails, they get to go to the electric company and buy electric from them. In the short term, conservation is the quickest solution. But even then, someone is going to tell me tax credits for new efficient windows or more insulation are unfair.

 

[jryoung]

If only someone had the balls to write legislation to remove all subsidies/deductions from all energy development. R&D Tax Credit, ITC, Intangible Drilling Costs, Tangible Drilling Costs, Depletion Allowance, Active Income Deductions, Section 48c credits...... The Biden Administration through the IRA added nuclear to the PTC to keep plants from being decommissioned.

It's almost if the tax code was written to encourage tax avoidance.

 

[Forkyfinder]

Disagree. Our grid is built almost entirely of bidirectional components and designs. Power flows where it is required, which in many case may be opposite what you'd expect. In all reality, you need modeling software like easy power, etc. to properly model even a small grid with accuracy, or under multiple changing conditions.

Also, don't understand your check valve comment. The only electrical component to act in that way would be a diode which doesn't make sense.


Interesting article for those curious: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1155/2020/4831434


Most current research is pointing towards smart inverter technology being the key to grid stability with PV in particular. The biggest concern in the industry has always been frequency stability if we cross the 30% renewable threshold. But all the research coming out points that smart inverters can solve these issues. With frequency it comes down to the inverters creating artificial impedance to mimic rotational inertia which I find fascinating. But other concerns are addressed by smart inverters.

The problem is its costly to complete these studies at the ends of distribution circuits with changing conditions. It's also costly to incorporate power factor support.

Long term i hope theres more fixes but this isnt necessarily a magic bullet.

 

[SD_Prairie_Goat]

The problem is its costly to complete these studies at the ends of distribution circuits with changing conditions. It's also costly to incorporate power factor support.

Long term i hope theres more fixes but this isnt necessarily a magic bullet.

Not sure what you mean by power factor support? Inverters run at unity power factor in most cases, so I'm not sure what you're getting at with your comment? Are you talking about capacitor banks?

Also, most utilities maintain a model of their system so adding in PV to test the results isn't as costly as a from scratch model would be.


There's tons of fixes at the end of the day. We have an extremely resilient grid and good power engineers making sure issues don't arise. To be honest, our biggest risk is retirement in the power space that will result in a massive loss of knowledge. We need to be importing electrical engineers and rates well beyond what's currently coming in

 

[Bonasababy]

How do we get these batteries to store electricity?

An old

Sustainable: Batteries bolster solar in a first for Minnesota | Finance & Commerce

The revolution underway in clean energy is taking a big step forward this month.

finance-commerce.com

And a more recent article for you.

Xcel Energy to build multi-day battery storage project using Form Energy's iron-air batteries

Xcel Energy on Thursday (July 6) announced that it has received approval from the state regulators to build a multi-day battery storage system

etn.news