Preferred Pronouns

[DouglasR]

I feel like we can all agree that the bottom line is we can do better.

 

[JLS]

Did you get that in WY? Haven't seen it in the liquor stores.

I bought it last at Tom’s IGA in Cascade, MT. Outstanding beer. One of my favs.

 

[longbow51]

I don't think pronouns are the real issue.

It's cultural creep and disintegration, and a lack of focus on the very real issues facing our children and our nation.

• We don't want gays and lesbians to be discriminated against
  • OK, we don't believe in discrimination based on any criteria
• We want gay marriage legalized
  • Go for it. Genetic dead end, but lots of people in the world.
• I was born the wrong sex
  • Wait, didn't we "trust the science"?
  • OK, you're an adult, do what you want
• No, I want to do it when I'm 10 years old
  • But you can't even do algebra, diagram a sentence (OK, no one can anymore), understand basic biology, and last year wanted to be a cowboy/princess
    • Yes, but I'm sure about this
    • OK, let's mutilate a 10 year old, give them hormones completely untested in any study.
    • Oh, but make sure you don't test this radical treatment on puppies or kittens. That would be unethical.
• I want to teach kids who still believe in the tooth fairy about how cool it is that I'm gay/lesbian/trans and encourage them to be gay/lesbian/trans too.
  • Well are they doing so well in math, science, language history, and physical fitness that you have extra time?
    • No, they're actually falling far below other countries in those things.
    • But, this is more important, and we'll be sure not to tell their parents
• And if you don't let boys in girls bathrooms and showers I'll starve your kids at school...the actual President of the United States.
  • Fiddling while Rome burns anyone?

The same folks who were oh-so-sure about lockdowns and masks and were quick to label any critical thinkers as heretics and science deniers are now oh-so-sure about this.

As to theological debates, that's a different, though valid discussion.

Likely many of you have read Heinlein's Stranger in a Strange Land. Heinlein himself was amazed at the attention the book received from the "hippies" of the day. He noted, though, that no matter whether or not you thought "proper Martian thoughts" there was little advantage to self or the world in doing so. OK, with the exception of maybe Elon Musk who wants to be a Martian, but AFAIK, isn't a ritual cannibal.

So, go forth, be happy adults and seek love with anyone who will have you. And use any pronoun you wish. Maybe try not to make it the focus of your entire existence though.

But lay off the tender age children, please. The outcomes are certainly muddy at best.

 

[VikingsGuy]

I don't think pronouns are the real issue.

It's cultural creep and disintegration, and a lack of focus on the very real issues facing our children and our nation.

• We don't want gays and lesbians to be discriminated against
  • OK, we don't believe in discrimination based on any criteria
• We want gay marriage legalized
  • Go for it. Genetic dead end, but lots of people in the world.
• I was born the wrong sex
  • Wait, didn't we "trust the science"?
  • OK, you're an adult, do what you want
• No, I want to do it when I'm 10 years old
  • But you can't even do algebra, diagram a sentence (OK, no one can anymore), understand basic biology, and last year wanted to be a cowboy/princess
    • Yes, but I'm sure about this
    • OK, let's mutilate a 10 year old, give them hormones completely untested in any study.
    • Oh, but make sure you don't test this radical treatment on puppies or kittens. That would be unethical.
• I want to teach kids who still believe in the tooth fairy about how cool it is that I'm gay/lesbian/trans and encourage them to be gay/lesbian/trans too.
  • Well are they doing so well in math, science, language history, and physical fitness that you have extra time?
    • No, they're actually falling far below other countries in those things.
    • But, this is more important, and we'll be sure not to tell their parents
• And if you don't let boys in girls bathrooms and showers I'll starve your kids at school...the actual President of the United States.
  • Fiddling while Rome burns anyone?

The same folks who were oh-so-sure about lockdowns and masks and were quick to label any critical thinkers as heretics and science deniers are now oh-so-sure about this.

As to theological debates, that's a different, though valid discussion.

Likely many of you have read Heinlein's Stranger in a Strange Land. Heinlein himself was amazed at the attention the book received from the "hippies" of the day. He noted, though, that no matter whether or not you thought "proper Martian thoughts" there was little advantage to self or the world in doing so. OK, with the exception of maybe Elon Musk who wants to be a Martian, but AFAIK, isn't a ritual cannibal.

So, go forth, be happy adults and seek love with anyone who will have you. And use any pronoun you wish. Maybe try not to make it the focus of your entire existence though.

But lay off the tender age children, please. The outcomes are certainly muddy at best.

While I am guessing we disagree on a lot of things, I do have real concerns about medical solutions for the under 16 crowd. I just don’t think we know enough about a topic we just started talking about 10 yrs ago to have 10 yo making life altering decisions. Heck I don’t even think kids should be able to get tattoos until 18.

 

[Nick87]

Heck I don’t even think kids should be able to get tattoos until 18.

They can't right? Maybe that's an illinois thing??

 

[VikingsGuy]

They can't right? Maybe that's an illinois thing??

We did have to give consent for our two daughters to get ear piercings when they were 14-ish. I assumed MN had some rules (we have rules for everything in this state), but you caused me to look it up.

 

[Gerald Martin]

While I am guessing we disagree with a lot of things, I do have real concerns about medical solutions for the under 16 crowd. I just don’t think we know enough about a topic we just started talking about 10 yrs ago to have 10 yo making life altering decisions. Heck I don’t even think kids should be able to get tattoos until 18.

Valid point. IMO, there’s a spectrum of acceptability of human behavior and an accompanying degree of prohibition or tolerance/ acceptance.

Irrevocable surgical procedures and hormonal treatments that alter the physiology of a minor child fall under those areas that I would categorize that should be illegal. If an adult wants to undergo such procedures, that’s their business. I might disagree with the wisdom of it but I think the law should allow it.


I would stand alongside of any human being to end discrimination against basic human right of housing, employment, etc.

I believe that I can do that at the same time retaining the ability to speak disagreement about behavior that I believe to be harmful to the individual and others they affect.

@VikingsGuy, you shouldn’t accept a label of being intolerant or hateful because you express reservations or opposition to certain practices that are affecting children, yet I can guarantee you there are some who would label you transphobic because you aren’t expressing support for every practice that a “trans” person could possibly undertake.

 

[EKYHunter]

It is possible to treat individuals with respect and dignity without affirming practices that are nonsensical in origin and actually demeaning. Words have meaning.

If someone chooses to base their identity on sexual preferences or whatever they think defines them, I will treat them with dignity and respect. However, I will also (respectfully) decline to participate in language that is intended to clearly imply that I affirm behavior/identity outside the parameters of biological reality and God’s moral laws.

What people choose to do privately has very limited affect on me personally. However, a demand/request/expectation that I use language that has the clear implication that my usage of it publicly affirms nonsense or immorality is not something I choose to do.

There are all kinds of examples of where society has no problems with giving clear communication that certain identity scenarios are unacceptable. If I choose to identify as a multi-millionaire and expect a bank to affirm “my reality” without the financial resources to back my claims, I can expect rejection.

If I remove all parameters around how I choose to behave as a self-identified heterosexual man, I can expect divorce or legal consequences dependent on the choices I make.

Just because certain beliefs or behaviors are currently trendy doesn’t mean they should be affirmed or promoted.

In fact, I would hope that if I ever engage in financial fantasy or move towards heterosexual infidelity that people who love me would firmly and clearly articulate that those chosen behaviors/identity are going to devastate me and the people who depend on me.

Very well said.

 

[VikingsGuy]

@VikingsGuy, you shouldn’t accept a label of being intolerant or hateful because you express reservations or opposition to certain practices that are affecting children, yet I can guarantee you there are some who would label you transphobic because you aren’t expressing support for every practice that a “trans” person could possibly undertake.

I often get labelled - It doesn't stop me from engaging, learning and loving. I like it when on the same topic I get "nasty-grams" from some people calling me a godless commie and others calling me a fascist in favor of religious tyranny.

 

[EKYHunter]

Yes Scott, I understand Matthew 7 but I have also read 1 Corinthians 7:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest of matters?

I also understand that if you love someone you will tell them the truth, in love of course. Love does not mean accepting what Gods word calls sin as ok. Love warns people to turn to Christ for salvation. If I were a doctor, what kind of doc would I be if I had the cure for an incurable disease and refused to share it with others? Same applies as a Christian. What kind of Christian would I be if I didn't point people to salvation? Instead I went along with sin as if everything is ok. I would be a deceiver. At the end of the day God is the final judge. His word will not change no matter how societies and culture changes. I have a responsibility to love others at the same time declare the word of truth.

Romans 1:26-32
For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature; and likewise also the men leaving the natural use of the woman burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenant breakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
So what often happens is when people come to understand that their lifestyle (not just LGBT, but all sins) contradict the Bible, instead of confession and repentance the next step is to reject God's word and attempt to undermine the validity of scripture. Also calling those that submit to God's word, Bible thumper, zealot, bigot, hater, etc.

Thank you. Sadly, many Christians today want to seemingly sugar coat God’s word and His instructions on how we should live our lives. No one wants to call out sin for what it is and even some so called churches pervert God’s word with an “I’m ok and you’re ok” ideology.

 

[gouch]

I don't think pronouns are the real issue.

It's cultural creep and disintegration, and a lack of focus on the very real issues facing our children and our nation.

• We don't want gays and lesbians to be discriminated against
  • OK, we don't believe in discrimination based on any criteria
• We want gay marriage legalized
  • Go for it. Genetic dead end, but lots of people in the world.
• I was born the wrong sex
  • Wait, didn't we "trust the science"?
  • OK, you're an adult, do what you want
• No, I want to do it when I'm 10 years old
  • But you can't even do algebra, diagram a sentence (OK, no one can anymore), understand basic biology, and last year wanted to be a cowboy/princess
    • Yes, but I'm sure about this
    • OK, let's mutilate a 10 year old, give them hormones completely untested in any study.
    • Oh, but make sure you don't test this radical treatment on puppies or kittens. That would be unethical.
• I want to teach kids who still believe in the tooth fairy about how cool it is that I'm gay/lesbian/trans and encourage them to be gay/lesbian/trans too.
  • Well are they doing so well in math, science, language history, and physical fitness that you have extra time?
    • No, they're actually falling far below other countries in those things.
    • But, this is more important, and we'll be sure not to tell their parents
• And if you don't let boys in girls bathrooms and showers I'll starve your kids at school...the actual President of the United States.
  • Fiddling while Rome burns anyone?

The same folks who were oh-so-sure about lockdowns and masks and were quick to label any critical thinkers as heretics and science deniers are now oh-so-sure about this.

As to theological debates, that's a different, though valid discussion.

Likely many of you have read Heinlein's Stranger in a Strange Land. Heinlein himself was amazed at the attention the book received from the "hippies" of the day. He noted, though, that no matter whether or not you thought "proper Martian thoughts" there was little advantage to self or the world in doing so. OK, with the exception of maybe Elon Musk who wants to be a Martian, but AFAIK, isn't a ritual cannibal.

So, go forth, be happy adults and seek love with anyone who will have you. And use any pronoun you wish. Maybe try not to make it the focus of your entire existence though.

But lay off the tender age children, please. The outcomes are certainly muddy at best.

Nowhere are 10 year old's being mutilated nor given untested hormone therapy or drugs for any condition let alone sex change.
Yes, babies are subjected to mutilation of sex organs shortly after birth. I and almost every other man and boy I know was subjected to this torture because, as we all know, God didn't have a clue what he was doing when he created the human penis.

If anyone truly believes that educating children about the reality of homosexuality can, and will, make them homosexual by choice, I have a challenge for you. Learn everything there is to know about homosexuality than choose to become homosexual for a week. You don't have to act on it but you must get sexually aroused and have the desire to engage in sex with at least one member of the same sex. May French kiss someone just to prove you succeeded. If you succeed please let me know so I can quit extending this challenge, but so far nobody has successfully completed my challenge. At least they won't admit it.

Schools do not let boys and girls use the same bathrooms (although I personally feel that all public bathrooms, everywhere, should be unisex with stalls. It's funny, most other countries are not so insecure about going potty. As far as showers go transgender people are already being forced to shower with members of the opposite sex. I had one of these people in my gym class in high school. She was mortified beyond her ability to cope every day. Suicide was the only solution she could come up with. I'm sure no one here is in favor of that, but all too often it is the reality.

Transgender people are that way from birth and all advocated desire is to let the child be themself not force anything on them. Opponents are the beasts trying to impose their will on the innocent child in an effort to make them something they are not.

 

[Gerald Martin]

I often get labelled - I doesn't stop me from engaging, learning and loving. I like it when on the same topic I get "nasty-grams" from some people calling me a godless commie and others calling me a fascist in favor of religious tyranny.

Humans of all persuasions have a strong propensity for “intolerance” of ideas that challenge their beliefs about how the world operates.

Sadly, the history of professing Christians includes many instances individuals and institutions not understanding the line between disagreement and discrimination.

The same thing happens with secularists/ non-believers as well.

Tolerance/Intolerance is a human trait not necessarily religious or non religious in nature.

Our understanding of what is acceptable shapes our culture. Our culture shapes us and influences our choices. Choices have consequences. Having proper discernment about what we tolerate or promote is very important.

 

[PawPawWPG]

Good conversation in this thread.

I just want to clarify something - I’m a high school principal in Michigan. I know there’s a lot of public schools out there, but I can guarantee that no one I know in a wide range of schools and states is actively trying to indoctrinate students sexually. We’re all way too busy and stressed out to add that to our plates!

 

[RobG]

When someone asks me my pronouns I feel like an agenda is being pushed on me. It's divisive and unnecessary so it seems like a bad idea to force it to be asked in a general situation. However, I support trans people. Live and let live.

For what it is worth, parents describe the transition as the death of child so it isn't entered lightly. For minors puberty blockers are used until the kid gets of an age to make an informed decision on hormones. Generally you have had to show a desire for many years before they'll give you drugs. Surgery is almost never done on a minor. Also, surprisingly, once people start taking hormones very few people regret it. That means they are happy, and that is all anyone should care about.

As far as suicide risk for being trans. I don't think it has much to do with being trans and everything to do with this agenda against them, especially things like referring to them as an abomination. Think about that next time you think you are saving a child.

 

[ammo]

mind your own biscuits and life will be gravy

 

[Irrelevant]

You guys need to drink some good beer and go fishing.

View attachment 226364

Hot tip, when it says "Hazy" it means "Lazy". Haze is a brewing defect.

 

[MTLabrador]

Hot tip, when it says "Hazy" it means "Lazy". Haze is a brewing defect.

You can take that commie propaganda out of here.

 

[noharleyyet]

 

[JLS]

Hot tip, when it says "Hazy" it means "Lazy". Haze is a brewing defect.

Prepare for the wrath of HUNT TALK MAN.

 

[Tradewind]

It is possible to treat individuals with respect and dignity without affirming practices that are nonsensical in origin and actually demeaning. Words have meaning.

If someone chooses to base their identity on sexual preferences or whatever they think defines them, I will treat them with dignity and respect. However, I will also (respectfully) decline to participate in language that is intended to clearly imply that I affirm behavior/identity outside the parameters of biological reality and God’s moral laws.

What people choose to do privately has very limited affect on me personally. However, a demand/request/expectation that I use language that has the clear implication that my usage of it publicly affirms nonsense or immorality is not something I choose to do.

There are all kinds of examples of where society has no problems with giving clear communication that certain identity scenarios are unacceptable. If I choose to identify as a multi-millionaire and expect a bank to affirm “my reality” without the financial resources to back my claims, I can expect rejection.

If I remove all parameters around how I choose to behave as a self-identified heterosexual man, I can expect divorce or legal consequences dependent on the choices I make.

Just because certain beliefs or behaviors are currently trendy doesn’t mean they should be affirmed or promoted.

In fact, I would hope that if I ever engage in financial fantasy or move towards heterosexual infidelity that people who love me would firmly and clearly articulate that those chosen behaviors/identity are going to devastate me and the people who depend on me.

Politics will be your next profession...if it isn't already. Then you get to deal w/ Ben Lamb all day