Pistols versus Big Bears

[Don Fischer]

I’ve watched guys fumble drawing or empty a magazine trying to hit a 8” plate at 15 yards shooting powderpuff loads out of a handgun that’s been slicked up for competition after the timer goes off. The idea that your going to draw and hit a moving target under maximum stress with a magnum revolver or 10 mm Auto is fantasy for most. Unless your an avid pistolero, I’d lean towards the bear spray.

Lot to be said for that. Think I'd hold onto my rifle as long as I could though! I read what a lot of guy's say about the handgun and keep getting the feeling they'd throw their rifle on the ground and take the bear on with the handgun! To me that is about the worst thing you could do! I think if I used the bear spray if would be up close and personal. Even at 20' the rifle bullet must carry better and much inside 20', the rifle probably won't handle as well. Problem for me would probably be getting the spray out in a timely fashion!

 

[HandgunHunter]

Lot to be said for that. Think I'd hold onto my rifle as long as I could though! I read what a lot of guy's say about the handgun and keep getting the feeling they'd throw their rifle on the ground and take the bear on with the handgun! To me that is about the worst thing you could do! I think if I used the bear spray if would be up close and personal. Even at 20' the rifle bullet must carry better and much inside 20', the rifle probably won't handle as well. Problem for me would probably be getting the spray out in a timely fashion!

I’d reckon it would be like any defensive situation and be an ooo .

All of the tools require practice….and all the tools can be attacked in some way. All of them have pluses and minuses.

If I was packing a rifle I’d think that with a contact shot would be about as effective as a firearm gets.

Then when you are cutting out the back straps to grill you can use the bear spray to add a nice spicy flavor.

 

[Don Fischer]

I’d reckon it would be like any defensive situation and be an ooo .

All of the tools require practice….and all the tools can be attacked in some way. All of them have pluses and minuses.

If I was packing a rifle I’d think that with a contact shot would be about as effective as a firearm gets.

Then when you are cutting out the back straps to grill you can use the bear spray to add a nice spicy flavor.

 

[noharleyyet]

Lot to be said for that. Think I'd hold onto my rifle as long as I could though! I read what a lot of guy's say about the handgun and keep getting the feeling they'd throw their rifle on the ground and take the bear on with the handgun! To me that is about the worst thing you could do! I think if I used the bear spray if would be up close and personal. Even at 20' the rifle bullet must carry better and much inside 20', the rifle probably won't handle as well. Problem for me would probably be getting the spray out in a timely fashion!

Canister or projectile platform, sounds like pray and spray.

 

[Don Fischer]

Canister or projectile platform, sounds like pray and spray.

I have never been charged by any animal so everything I have to say is speculation. I just wonder how many people actually have been charged by a dangerous wild animal? Probably far less than claim it! I was watching a video of what was called a black bear charge several months ago. Bear came right down the road and then took off right at the guy that was supposed to be being charged. Ran into him and simply kept on going! I would not call that a charge but rather the bear spooked and took off running and had no idea the guy it was supposed to have charged was even there! Being that as it is I think no one is gonna have any real idea how to react in an actual charge must less be that good at reacting instinctively to it! I strongly suspect if the charge get's inside 20' or so, your to late! But I also think it's a good thing to talk about also. I see video's all the time of kids playing with wild animals with mom and dad off the side videoing the cute situation. God help the kid if it's wants to buddy up with the wrong wild animal! This whole thing sort of sounds like going off to war and having to shoot your first human being! What ya gonna do? Want to get really spooked about bear attacks? Find a copy of "Alaska Bear Tales" and read it by the campfire next camping trip! Great book!

 

[howl]

Oh boy, a bear handgun thread!

My take is if you're dealing with brown or white bears, a handgun is a gamble. I avoid them, myself, but if I were to not, and actually thought odds of an encounter were high, I'd want a long gun. Brown bears, good grief. No comment. With polar bears the thing seems to be a pack of sled dogs to distract it while you poke it full of holes with something automatic. Never actually seen a polar bear in the wild.

If black, .44 mag. Really no reason to go lower or chase boutique loads for pistols when you can get .44 240gr HPs wherever they sell ammo. Well, you can when the world is not so out of sorts. The last time I went for black bear with a gun I carried a 30/30 and did not feel undergunned at all.

Sticking a pistol into the side of a bear that is on top of you seems like you may as well be holding a flintlock. It might go off the first time. Even the stand-offs all the cool guns have on the end of the frames nowadays will be challenged by fur. A double action revolver will likely go off every time.

A S&W 69 can hit a steel plate at bear defense range with surprising rapidity. It will also function 100% being fired while wrapped up in an old jacket, though I suspect if you repeat the exercise enough the hammer will hang up in something eventually.

 

[Mustangs Rule]

Could you provide a link to this study? Thanks!

it is in #31

 

[Nostromo]

For many years I was a biology and chemistry high school teacher is rural school district surrounded by National Forest. I began once a month Saturday field trips into the forest, typically talking 6 to 8 teen age science students with me. This was unpaid and on my own time. It became a very popular program for kids and adults. Always there were parents who came along and near always some local member of the County Sheriff Dept, or State police, or fire department that attended too. They carried a concealed firearm. I did too,,,along with bear spray.


I instructed them, that should a bear encounter ever happen, my spray came first, and fiream use was a back up response.



There were “lions, rattlers and bears,,,,Ohh My” in the forest and regularly we would hike though areas where they were.



My school principal trusted me fully. I had been a licensed hunting guide prior to teaching in the school and also offered classes in outdoor education. He expected me to be at the absolute “top of science and safety” in all regards when taking these kids afield.



Among many things, that required I research the effectiveness of bear spray,,,,made even easier by the Herrero-Smith bear spray research study which came out. The link is below.



When this study came out, there was a flurry of “counter studies” from the firearms indistry supporting firearms over bear spray for self defense against a bear attack.



Books bore students,,,these field trips offered the chance to see biology and science in real time, real life and we used them as lesson plans to study state science standards.



At some point actually studying the bead spray issue was a worthy science project. Some students were hunters, some non-huneters, some anti-hunters.



The conclusions were obvious and unavoidable. The Herrero Smith Bear spray study was solid science, and the pro-firearm “study” from the shooting industry was just a collection of invalidated stories, some a hundred years old. There was no science present.



Some hunting parents got upset,,,called me up and told me so, called me an anti hunter. Yes I am a science teacher with a degree, but also a life long hunter and then a hunting guide no less.



I offered a chance for any and all to compare the information offered by both both sides. It was like being at the range and seeing one shooter never miss the bullseye and another barely being able to keep his bullets on paper.



After comparison, the hunting parents went away even more angry,,,because they could see how the hunting industry was spreading so much mis-information about a crical choice.



Lastly, going to the post above by FLS, the idea that we could,,,under the stress of an actual bear attack shoot a fast moving bear in the brain,,,is so unrealistic,,,even more so with the slanted skull being so capable of deflecting a bullet away. Just so much fantasy compared to sending out a 2-3 foot diameter cloud of very effective proven repellent.

(PDF) Efficacy of Bear Deterrent Spray in Alaska

PDF | We present a comprehensive look at a sample of bear spray incidents that occurred in Alaska, USA, from 1985 to 2006. We analyzed 83 bear spray... | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate

www.researchgate.net

Interesting. I'm downloading the PDF currently. I also read your post about going unarmed.

I read Herrero's book "Bear Attacks" recently after it was brought up in another discussion. I had quoted something he had said that I saw on TV. It didn't coincide with what the other guy thought about Herrero. So, I bought the book and read it. He does not seem to put a lot of faith in hunters and their ability to use their own firearms either.

"Lastly, going to the post above by FLS, the idea that we could,,,under the stress of an actual bear attack shoot a fast moving bear in the brain,,,is so unrealistic,,,even more so with the slanted skull being so capable of deflecting a bullet away. Just so much fantasy compared to sending out a 2-3 foot diameter cloud of very effective proven repellent." This portion below reminded me of an event involving pepper spray. I was watching two police officers wrestle with a bad guy. They were outmatched and one of them pulled pepper spray and preceded to give her partner a full blast in the face. This was a trained officer.

The question I have about aggressive bears is why would you choose to let it go? It will most likely be aggressive again and that time it might be with someone who willingly went into the forest without a firearm.

Anyway, I read the cover sheet with the percentages of success and mishaps. When the rest downloads I'll have a look.

Thank You!

 

[Mustangs Rule]

Interesting. I'm downloading the PDF currently. I also read your post about going unarmed.

I read Herrero's book "Bear Attacks" recently after it was brought up in another discussion. I had quoted something he had said that I saw on TV. It didn't coincide with what the other guy thought about Herrero. So, I bought the book and read it. He does not seem to put a lot of faith in hunters and their ability to use their own firearms either.

"Lastly, going to the post above by FLS, the idea that we could,,,under the stress of an actual bear attack shoot a fast moving bear in the brain,,,is so unrealistic,,,even more so with the slanted skull being so capable of deflecting a bullet away. Just so much fantasy compared to sending out a 2-3 foot diameter cloud of very effective proven repellent." This portion below reminded me of an event involving pepper spray. I was watching two police officers wrestle with a bad guy. They were outmatched and one of them pulled pepper spray and preceded to give her partner a full blast in the face. This was a trained officer.

The question I have about aggressive bears is why would you choose to let it go? It will most likely be aggressive again and that time it might be with someone who willingly went into the forest without a firearm.

Anyway, I read the cover sheet with the percentages of success and mishaps. When the rest downloads I'll have a look.

Thank You!

Thank you,,,I will get back you more fully tonight..lots of firewood to split. Bears are rather curious,,,often stand up on their hind legs for a look. Just one way so many hunters think they are charging.

Doug Peacock was a medic in Vietnam. Afer the war he lost something deep and good. He went to just live with bears, blacks and grizz in Montana.

Normally those with Science degrees who study bears are rather ego filled group and think less of those without degrees. Not so with Doug Peacoock. He had totally earned the respect of professionals. His up close and personal experience with grizzly bears is absolutel top shelf. Last read he has been charged about 50 times by Grizzlies. Doug lost all fear of them. they almost always engage in fake charge,,,really just a bluff. Doug would just stand there and look at them,,,then they would just walk away. There are times and places when he would be at maximun caution.

What happens so often is that Grizzlies do engage in that fake charge,,,hunter freak out, start shooting, the adrenaline button in a bear gets pushed an their is damage all around,,,and usually a great game animals is lost.

An interstesting thing about the response to this post was how one way they have been.

Whether a bullet or bear spray works better has been solely based on what protects the human more. Using a gun will cause serious injury to the bear nearly 100% of the time. Using bear spray leaves the bear uninjured 100% of the time,,,but with great repect for people and the power of Bear spray.

I bought two cans of it my first time. I tested one can, fully,,on the back proch, I let out a huge blast then came inside.

About ten minutes later I went around to the front on the house and just caught a light residual whiff of it. Both my friend and I could hardly breathe.

Later

Look up Doug Peacock.

 

[Mustangs Rule]

Doug Peacock - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[GlockZ]

I think the situation dictates what should be used. As many times as bear spray would be appropriate, is as many times a pistol would be. A rifle trumps all though. Last year, I was hunting in the Shoshone National Forest and ran in to a young male grizzly just 50' in front of me. We just kind of looked at each other for a few moments, and then he left and continued on his way, disappearing into the tree line. I gave him quite a few minutes of a head start, before I continued on, only to realize that he was following me, actually paralleling me, anywhere from 50 to 75 yards above me on the ridge. This continued on for about a mile and a half or a bit more before he finally decided to go up and over into another drainage. Neither pistol, spray or rifle were warranted, I was a bit startled and a bit nervous, but ultimately, "cool heads" kept the situation from escalating into something worse.

 

[Panda Bear]

The question I have about aggressive bears is why would you choose to let it go? It will most likely be aggressive again and that time it might be with someone who willingly went into the forest without a firearm.

I am going to assume you are asking a serious question and respond accordingly. Bears "act" or possibly "appear " to act aggressively under a lot of different circumstances. You may surprise one and their first reaction is act aggressive, but if you act calm they will move away. They may have gotten to your downed animal before you and in that case you hope they are not real hungry, Polars will circle you, follow you and appear aggressive but they are just curious. Each breed, black, brown, white react different and one needs to be able to "read" them. When they are in town and wont leave they are sometimes darted and moved out of town or to prison, sometimes both

You can not kill every bear that "looks" or even "acts" aggressive. If you have a DLP kill in Alaska, you better have either claw or teeth marks on your body. It is not quite as bad here, but there are rules that must be followed . Someone here can let us know how Montana handles DLP's

And, dont forget they live here also. We have a great deal of respect for the bear. A lady recently got upset at me in a meeting about bears, when I told the panel that several times when I was in college, I had a few unwanted and uninvited men aggressively confront me, but I did not shoot them in order to possibly eliminate another female from being confronted by them. However, this meeting was about the continuing effort by some to eliminate Grizzly hunting here.

 

[Mustangs Rule]

I think the situation dictates what should be used. As many times as bear spray would be appropriate, is as many times a pistol would be. A rifle trumps all though. Last year, I was hunting in the Shoshone National Forest and ran in to a young male grizzly just 50' in front of me. We just kind of looked at each other for a few moments, and then he left and continued on his way, disappearing into the tree line. I gave him quite a few minutes of a head start, before I continued on, only to realize that he was following me, actually paralleling me, anywhere from 50 to 75 yards above me on the ridge. This continued on for about a mile and a half or a bit more before he finally decided to go up and over into another drainage. Neither pistol, spray or rifle were warranted, I was a bit startled and a bit nervous, but ultimately, "cool heads" kept the situation from escalating into something worse.

The appropriate response to a grizzly bear or any bear is determined by your mission objective.



If your mission is that of a licensed hunter, with a legal tag to hunt a grizzly, or even a black bear, then the most effective tools to accomplish that mission would be rifle, specialized pistol then bow,,,in that order of effectiveness.



If the mission is for a person to survive, without injury, a sudden encounter bear attack, or predacious bear attack, then the odds of success overwhelmingly favor the use of bear spray.



It really is that simple.



Using the spray, not only leaves the bear unhurt, but also leaves it with a serious lesson about why they should not go after people. It is a win win situation.



Using a pistol has the greatest chance of simply wounding, then infuriating it and having a person get injured. A lose lose ending.



Reviewing the Herrero-Smith research study about bear spray, 40% of those who used a firearm as a defense against a bear attack received some type of serious injury. The type of firearm used was not broken down to either rifle or pistol as I recall.



So even those who used a rifle were still injured. How effective could a pistol then be?



A grizzly is as fast as a quarter horse, can do a 100 yards in four seconds. How many hunters even with a rifle could handle an explosive grizzly attack.?



I have had 5 situations in my life to be around grizzies.



Summers spent in British Columbia hiking, including hiking across the Canadian Rockies 50 years ago. No gun and no bear spray back then.



Two drop off small game hunting week long trips in Alaska. One dropped off by boat on the coast, and another being dropped off by bush plane in the interior.



And lastly years of hunting in NW Wyoming’s Wind River range with a high density of Gizzlies.



In every situation where it could go “bear wrong” I had my rifle shouldered and bear spray at ready in my hands.

We cannot just shoot bears because they scare us...they are very curioius. Recall how long Tim Treadwell was around them before he got a "bad news bear" .



My preference would always be use bear spray first and have a gun as a backup, but if I could have just one, it would be spray.

Oddly it seems that the bear most resitant to bear spray is the black bear. And it is the black bear that accounts for the most attacks. So many of them around people I guess.

 

[JV842]

Situation Situation Situation!!! There r too many variables to accurately discuss “what is better or more effective”
Yes bear spray is nice but as said before, throw some wind in the equation; we had to put up w CS gas in Marine Corps boot camp, not fun but can definitely operate after being gassed
Pistols/rifles iffy but can be done; PURE LUCK but I dropped a steer w a nylon 66 .22 that broke down the door on our kill floor n came at me in a small hallway, multitude of variables w a firearm/shooter
Being aware of ur surroundings, one of the safest, but things happen
As in the sex debate, abstinence is the only sure bet; stay out of the bush all together, but who in the hell is going to do that!

 

[Nostromo]

I am going to assume you are asking a serious question and respond accordingly. Bears "act" or possibly "appear " to act aggressively under a lot of different circumstances. You may surprise one and their first reaction is act aggressive, but if you act calm they will move away. They may have gotten to your downed animal before you and in that case you hope they are not real hungry, Polars will circle you, follow you and appear aggressive but they are just curious. Each breed, black, brown, white react different and one needs to be able to "read" them. When they are in town and wont leave they are sometimes darted and moved out of town or to prison, sometimes both

You can not kill every bear that "looks" or even "acts" aggressive. If you have a DLP kill in Alaska, you better have either claw or teeth marks on your body. It is not quite as bad here, but there are rules that must be followed . Someone here can let us know how Montana handles DLP's

And, dont forget they live here also. We have a great deal of respect for the bear. A lady recently got upset at me in a meeting about bears, when I told the panel that several times when I was in college, I had a few unwanted and uninvited men aggressively confront me, but I did not shoot them in order to possibly eliminate another female from being confronted by them. However, this meeting was about the continuing effort by some to eliminate Grizzly hunting here.

Fair enough. Decisions like this have to be situational.

 

[406dn]

In one class my instuctor was offereing examples of how people shot reacted.

I one case a female police offered took a shot right in her heart with a 357. She move around the vehicle, returned fire, kiiled the bad guy then collapsed. The paramedics had just arrived, gave her oxygen,,,took her to a hospital and she recieved a heart transplant.

WOW... what a lucky woman. Not many hospitals have a heart on the shelf that matches the blood type etc ready to drop into a heart shot officer.

I'm having some trouble swallowing this tale.

 

[shrapnel]

I read in Alaska Bear Tales about head shot's on Grizzly. Unless very close, not such a good idea as the slope of the fore head is said to make the bullet rick-o-shay off and not penetrate. It was claimed that even a 20 ga slug will bounce off the head but that a 12ga slug will usually penetrate the head.

Ricochets off of grizzly skulls are as common as people having any real experience with a grizzly. Most of everything posted here is speculation and hearsay.

I avoid the grizzly confrontation as much as possible. I have a revolver and bear spray when in the occupied woods, knowing my chances are better at survival than without.

I also know that a serious encounter will happen much faster than most people think, and being prepared isn’t just about carrying bear spray or guns.

 

[gallagher71]

Hmmm...am I the only one who believes he just read through three pages of posts aimed at persuading someone to stop thinking their "wrong way" on this matter and to start thinking someone else's "right way." 3-pages later...doubtful anyone was convinced to think differently.

Two decades ago it was decided that spilling hot coffee on yourself not only hurts, but that the absence of a warning label was negligent harm by a 3rd party. Loading your wife and kids in a wagon and hitting the Oregon Trail was dangerous. Today, the masses would call it child endangerment. Not wearing a mask or alternatively, requiring a mask can cause a street fight.

We've come a long way. Some of our progress is good and noble. Some...not so much.

Makes me treasure something my grandfather told me, "Being right is much more effectively demonstrated that articulated."

This is America. Do your research. Carry what you choose in the wilderness. Act wisely. Suffer consequences who you make bad choices. Pray that the consequences we all suffer in life sometimes are teachable but not fatal events.

 

[Mustangs Rule]

Hmmm...am I the only one who believes he just read through three pages of posts aimed at persuading someone to stop thinking their "wrong way" on this matter and to start thinking someone else's "right way." 3-pages later...doubtful anyone was convinced to think differently.

Two decades ago it was decided that spilling hot coffee on yourself not only hurts, but that the absence of a warning label was negligent harm by a 3rd party. Loading your wife and kids in a wagon and hitting the Oregon Trail was dangerous. Today, the masses would call it child endangerment. Not wearing a mask or alternatively, requiring a mask can cause a street fight.

We've come a long way. Some of our progress is good and noble. Some...not so much.

Makes me treasure something my grandfather told me, "Being right is much more effectively demonstrated that articulated."

This is America. Do your research. Carry what you choose in the wilderness. Act wisely. Suffer consequences who you make bad choices. Pray that the consequences we all suffer in life sometimes are teachable but not fatal events.

The understanding that is consistenly absent in these pages is that bears too need human invlolved events which they can learn from and are not fatal to them

 

[Addicting]

15 year old boys bragging about how they would handle the Playboy Playmate of the year.

I would relish every min of her mauling me.