Pistols versus Big Bears

[Ben Lamb]

And that is why if you are trying to stop a bear with a handgun you are going to need to hit the brain.

Which is why a 44 is better than a 9. It's .062" bigger!

 

[HandgunHunter]

I recall reading how after the bear was killed and skinned and dressed out they saw that all the shots went right into the heart area in group the size of a fist. That bear really was "dead" after the first shot.

As a hunter I aways avoid the heart shot if at all possible.. I like a double lung shot high so shock is also transfered to the spine.

Animals usially drop like a stone with this shot. Heart shot animals can run much farther in my experience. Far enough to have them disappear in the bush.

I have a concealed weapons permit for many decades and have taken plenty of classes and had field shooting courses taught by instructors held in high regard by the shooting community because of thier law enforcemnet bakground.

In one class my instuctor was offereing examples of how people shot reacted.

I one case a female police offered took a shot right in her heart with a 357. She move around the vehicle, returned fire, kiiled the bad guy then collapsed. The paramedics had just arrived, gave her oxygen,,,took her to a hospital and she recieved a heart transplant.

People or bears can be dead on thier feet with a heart shot and still be deadly.

The idea that so many in favor of using a pistol or even a rifle as bear defence, have is that they can kill a bear instanly with a brain or spine shot.

Under the pressure of the momnent,,,having this level of skill is pretty much fantasy.

Some years ago I had a choice,,,come back to camp via a canyon where I saw fresh tracks of a sow grizz and her cub in mud, or go way up and around,,,an extra hour and get bak to camp way after dark.

I re-examimed the tracks,,,The intermediate pads were very straight. the toe pattern also was. The toes were fat with little space between them, I could see the webbing between the toes and the claws were long and straight,,,,grizz for sure.

I had aleady done all the research on the how effcetive bear spray was..I shouldered my 30-06, kept my bear spray right in my hands and made noise as i walked back to camp using the same trail as the grizz did.

Are you making it up as you go?

It’s not fantasy. I gave you a couple guys that are easy to search and you kind find many articles on their exploits at stopping much bigger critters than a bear with brain stem shots.

A brain stem shot is the only way to guarantee a instant stop on a charge…..or hopped up criminal since you wanted to start using those examples which are also not comparable.

Once again…….you can not….in any way….at all……measure any of these tools without adding the skills of the user into the equation.

The guys from your statement that body shot a bear that was charging…..FAILED to place the shot correctly.

All you have is a 3-4” triangle just above the bridge of the nose.

The only thing we can measure from this post is you are not the expert on this subject you are trying to be…..

I carry a gun and spray….because options are important, and even a person can fight through spray….that’s part of the LE qual with spray at most departments.

 

[BucksnDucks]

anchorman 100% of the time right every time - Search Videos

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[Don Fischer]

Ding ding! All of the rifle shots quoted in the original post were not “good” shots. The only shot that stops a charge guaranteed is a brain stem shot. A little 3-4” triangle target……doesn’t matter how much “energy” (which is a horrible number to base lethality on) was dumped into an animal.

In firearms season I only hunt with handguns…….but I also carry bear spray….it also works good to spice up the backpacking meals.

I read in Alaska Bear Tales about head shot's on Grizzly. Unless very close, not such a good idea as the slope of the fore head is said to make the bullet rick-o-shay off and not penetrate. It was claimed that even a 20 ga slug will bounce off the head but that a 12ga slug will usually penetrate the head. Place we used to fish up there, river south of Anchourage, we'd see lot's of bear sign, some huge tracks. Carried a 308 loaded with 200gr bullet's in there but never had occasion the use it. I would not carry a handgun into bear country, I'd take a rifle. be a different story if I was trapping in there and then, bare min would be a 44 mag. Problem is I cannot shoot one with anything other than slower cast bullet's. Bear spray may be just the thing but I have never ever seen it in a store anywhere. I think also the failure's with the rifle's were due to bad shot's! Read an article several years ago about a woman from Anchorage that stopped one with a 9mm. I would not want to try that but if a 9mm is all you have it's better than nothing.

When I carried in my 308 up there I pretty much convinced myself the best shot was going to be just under the chin hoping to get the spine. Though that 200gr bullet up close would make that trip. One last though, the long range shooter seem to me to be the best candidate for attack from a wounded bear. Amazing with a less than perfect shot how much a dangerous animal can take and still attack I suspect. My time living in Alaska and Montana both I went in paranoid about running into Grizzly's and In Montana bought a 338 mag just in case. Got over it up there and all the time I spent outdoors, have never run into a Grizzly in my life. My choice ended up being a heavy 30 cal bullet in a short quick handling rifle. Of course all this is simply speculation as Had I ever actually been charged by a bear, I might change my mind! Go on in and give it your best shot, bears will generally avoid you and I doubt you will ever know they were there unless you find a big foot print in which case you'll probably get the willy's!

 

[Nostromo]

The best ever study about using firearms, rifles too, for defense versus grizzlies, was done a few years ago.



40% of the time the shooter gets serious hurt and the bear gets injured almost a 100% of the time.



With bear spray 98% of the time with all factors considered, even wind, the person comes away unhurt.

Could you provide a link to this study? Thanks!

 

[LousyResident]

I'll throw this back in here LOL

Well this seems...interesting

https://www.smith-wesson.com/mp12

www.hunttalk.com

 

[std7mag]

-



99% of the time when April, Ken, Ben make a post I have to ask for clarification, especially when they talk about "ancient" history, the 60.s and 70's ( In Aprils case the 50's )

But I got this one and agree. And his choice of mates is not all bad either Very good hunter, he must drive a muscle car

Which Ken???

 

[FLS]

I’ve watched guys fumble drawing or empty a magazine trying to hit a 8” plate at 15 yards shooting powderpuff loads out of a handgun that’s been slicked up for competition after the timer goes off. The idea that your going to draw and hit a moving target under maximum stress with a magnum revolver or 10 mm Auto is fantasy for most. Unless your an avid pistolero, I’d lean towards the bear spray.

 

[HighDesertSage]

In “Big Game Animals of North America” Jack O’Connor describes a showdown between a bad coastal brown bear a guide and an Alaska Game Warden. One had 30-06 with over 3000 ft. pounds of energy and the other a 300 win mag with just under 4000 pounds.



The bear attacked. Both fired, 7,000 pounds. The bear got up. Two more shots. Now 14,000 pounds.



The bear got up, one more shot with the 300WM ended the bear,18,000 pounds of energy. All shots were good.



Inland grizzlies are about half the size but are loaded with lots more fight chemistry.



A 10mm is little more powerful than a 357. Over 600 ft. pounds. A 44 mag gets close to 1000 pounds, half the power of 30-30.



The best ever study about using firearms, rifles too, for defense versus grizzlies, was done a few years ago.



40% of the time the shooter gets serious hurt and the bear gets injured almost a 100% of the time.



With bear spray 98% of the time with all factors considered, even wind, the person comes away unhurt.



Talking about using little pistols on big bears is like 15 year old boys bragging about how they would handle the Playboy Playmate of the year.



Nothing wrong with gun as backup. But wake up and smell the bear spray, it really works.

Do you work for Counter Assault?

 

[LousyResident]

Finally, the best of both worlds.

https://www.pepperball.com/products/tcp/

 

[Mustangs Rule]

Do you work for Counter Assault?

For many years I was a biology and chemistry high school teacher is rural school district surrounded by National Forest. I began once a month Saturday field trips into the forest, typically talking 6 to 8 teen age science students with me. This was unpaid and on my own time. It became a very popular program for kids and adults. Always there were parents who came along and near always some local member of the County Sheriff Dept, or State police, or fire department that attended too. They carried a concealed firearm. I did too,,,along with bear spray.


I instructed them, that should a bear encounter ever happen, my spray came first, and fiream use was a back up response.



There were “lions, rattlers and bears,,,,Ohh My” in the forest and regularly we would hike though areas where they were.



My school principal trusted me fully. I had been a licensed hunting guide prior to teaching in the school and also offered classes in outdoor education. He expected me to be at the absolute “top of science and safety” in all regards when taking these kids afield.



Among many things, that required I research the effectiveness of bear spray,,,,made even easier by the Herrero-Smith bear spray research study which came out. The link is below.



When this study came out, there was a flurry of “counter studies” from the firearms indistry supporting firearms over bear spray for self defense against a bear attack.



Books bore students,,,these field trips offered the chance to see biology and science in real time, real life and we used them as lesson plans to study state science standards.



At some point actually studying the bead spray issue was a worthy science project. Some students were hunters, some non-huneters, some anti-hunters.



The conclusions were obvious and unavoidable. The Herrero Smith Bear spray study was solid science, and the pro-firearm “study” from the shooting industry was just a collection of invalidated stories, some a hundred years old. There was no science present.



Some hunting parents got upset,,,called me up and told me so, called me an anti hunter. Yes I am a science teacher with a degree, but also a life long hunter and then a hunting guide no less.



I offered a chance for any and all to compare the information offered by both both sides. It was like being at the range and seeing one shooter never miss the bullseye and another barely being able to keep his bullets on paper.



After comparison, the hunting parents went away even more angry,,,because they could see how the hunting industry was spreading so much mis-information about a crical choice.



Lastly, going to the post above by FLS, the idea that we could,,,under the stress of an actual bear attack shoot a fast moving bear in the brain,,,is so unrealistic,,,even more so with the slanted skull being so capable of deflecting a bullet away. Just so much fantasy compared to sending out a 2-3 foot diameter cloud of very effective proven repellent.

(PDF) Efficacy of Bear Deterrent Spray in Alaska

PDF | We present a comprehensive look at a sample of bear spray incidents that occurred in Alaska, USA, from 1985 to 2006. We analyzed 83 bear spray... | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate

www.researchgate.net

 

[Doublecluck]

This thread would do better if it was started in may. Cmmon man! Archery opens tomorrow and I gotta go check my trail cams.

 

[popeyoung12]

killed a mt. grizz in the Yukon on 1975, cover of outdoor life with a ,270 charging. 7 shots. i say bear spray. buddy is doing a bow moose hunt alaske next week, full of grizz. 10mm for him, told him to file the front sight down so it doesnt hurt when the bear shoves it up his arse.

 

[Mustangs Rule]

One of the greatest things we can do for ourselves is spend time in real wilderness unarmed. We do not have to do it all the time , but to have at least an occasional trip into places where big predators are and go there with nothing but out grit and humility makes us much better more complete men. Going unarmed builds character and increases awareness.

As a kid of 23,,,50 years ago I crossed the Canadian Rockies with only boy scout backpack and a USN pilots knife. I remember those days with a smile..Unless hunting i now go into the forest w/o a gun an only bear spray,,,which did not exist 50 years ago when I gave myself that adventure,,,,which was greater more than any one I ever had carrying a gun.

The connection hunters so often talk about with nature can only be found when we bring no technical self defense advantage with us,,,,just out eyes, ears, nose and a hyper non-common sense that has been honed razor sharp

 

[Mustangs Rule]

killed a mt. grizz in the Yukon on 1975, cover of outdoor life with a ,270 charging. 7 shots. i say bear spray. buddy is doing a bow moose hunt alaske next week, full of grizz. 10mm for him, told him to file the front sight down so it doesnt hurt when the bear shoves it up his arse.

A 10mm has about 650 ft. pounds of energy,,,equal to 1/3 the energy of a 30-30,,,and weighs about 1/2 of what can of bear spray does. Delusions are unlimited.

 

[Mustangs Rule]

A 10mm has about 650 ft. pounds of energy,,,equal to 1/3 the energy of a 30-30,,,and weighs about 1/2 of what can of bear spray does. Delusions are unlimited.

meant to say weighs 2x as much as a can of bear spray

 

[The Hedgehog]

Am I the only one happy he quit using 3 carriage returns between sentences?

 

[ZMT588]

Can someone link @wllm1313 's post about the proper use of ... and ,,,

 

[ZMT588]

I recall reading how after the bear was killed and skinned and dressed out they saw that all the shots went right into the heart area in group the size of a fist. That bear really was "dead" after the first shot.

Also how TF can two people dump 5 rounds into the HEART of a charging grizzly with a .30-06 and a .300. I call BS.

 

[Doublecluck]

Also how TF can two people dump 5 rounds into the HEART of a charging grizzly with a .30-06 and a .300. I call BS.

Don’t shoot the bullet. Be the bullet.