Pics of My 2004 buck and Managment idea

[BrianID]

Moosie,

I hope that my other posts can answer most of your questions but will try to answer some of your questions directly.

Question #1 from moosie.

You wrote that you like the controled hunt idea then said you don't want to do it.

Here’s a quote from post #2 about my opinion of controlled hunts.

The easiest way and often times the only way to limit the success of hunters is to decrease the number of hunters which means increased cost AND switching general season units to controlled hunt units. If there is only 1 buck for every 5 guys that want to hunt, I think the only way to go is with a controlled hunt system. I think that if every unit in Idaho became a controlled hunt unit it would be better than what we have now. However, if it were possible to increase the number of big bucks without going to a controlled hunt system I think it would be better. Personally I don’t want to wait until I’m lucky enough to draw to hunt. Controlled hunts CAN also discourage youth and families from hunting together.

Question #2 from moosie.

I agree that Oct 5th - Oct 31st is a Long time. Probably too long. But I would venture that if you shorted the Seasonto one week, Everyone would take that week off and more Fights, and overcrouding of people in the hills would happen. With the longer seasons some people take mid weks off and leave the Weekend warrior stuff to others. If it was a Week long only then, well, thats what ya got

My paragraph in Post #2 about season the length of the season is somewhat confusing. Basically I was just trying to say the season length does have an influence on the number of deer killed but other things like the number of hunters and the time of the year that the hunt takes place has a greater influence. I think that the October 19th closing date in the SE region is significantly better than the October 31st closing date because of snow storms like we had this year and pre rut makes some of the bigger bucks less wary during the last few days of October.

 

[The Hedgehog]

Just so you know, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with shooting a small buck, everybody has their reasons and I’m not putting you or anybody down for taking a young animal.

But sorry, I still think you’re being hypocritical. I don’t know a whole lot about Idaho mule deer, but I’m fairly certain the mature buck numbers are higher than most places in the state I live in. SE Idaho is very well represented in the B&C records.

You talk about the “good old days” but then say you’ve only hunted Idaho for 6 years… and in that time hunted over a dozen counties and every unit in eastern Idaho. My guess is you need to focus more and hunt harder.

You can spend all your time pushing for a change in the management of Idaho deer to be more restrictive of hunters. Meanwhile those big massive old B&C South Eastern Idaho mule deer are filling their bellies in some tucked away little spot, waiting for somebody to come try and find them. Unfortunately, that forked horn buck you killed won’t get any older or bigger.

 

[BrianID]

Supersider,

The bottom line is that I don’t think there are enough muley bucks for hunters to kill a 2 point meat buck every year (yes I know I’m a hypocrite but I hope I have explained that argument well enough in other posts).

30 years ago an idea like this wouldn’t have worked. Today the number one reason people hunt isn’t for food but for enjoyment. Like I said in post #2

There would be some people that say they need to shoot a deer for meat every year. As most of us know that isn’t true and with a controlled hunt system they wouldn’t be able to shoot a deer every year anyway. Deer meat from a western states is more expensive than the best cuts of beef if you considering the cost of buying a tag, gas, hunting equipment and money that could have been earned by working instead of hunting. Even if you get paid minimum wage you would get more meat for the freezer by going to work instead of going hunting.

Almost all the deer that are eating peoples shrubs are does and young bucks. More mature bucks would make the herd more healthy and I will be happy to list some of benefits to the herd if you ask but I sure that you already know them. If you have a problem with deer herd being too large you don’t allow hunters to kill most of the bucks resulting in few mature bucks. You allow hunters to kill more does, which could be done easily under a controlled hunt.

I really think that a large majority of hunters would rather shoot 2 or 3 nice bucks in a ten year period than shoot 5 smaller bucks and possible a big buck during that same 10 year period.

Like I said earlier there are a few guys (like you) that wouldn’t benefit much from this system, but I really think that most hunters would benefit from this and like how this works compared to other management plans.

If you didn’t have a couple of your honey holes would you think this was a good idea?

If not please give me a reason why. You might even change my mind about this . If I didn't answer some of your questions let me know and I'll do my best to answer them.

 

[BrianID]

supersider,
I didn’t say anything or see anything about bonus or preference points earlier so I don’t know were that came from. Statistically I should have drawn 2-4 tags in the last 7 years that I have been apply and the only tag that I have drawn was the 50x tag which I don’t think really counts because it is an extra tag and it was pretty much a guaranteed draw. Bad luck is the only thing I blame for not ever drawing on a controlled hunt. I still agree with you 100% that bonus/preference point systems are a bad idea. Most people think that point systems will increase their chances of drawing. The truth is they actually decrease your chance of drawing because it encourages more people to apply for the hunts. With a point system I think that many of the controlled hunts in Idaho would become twice as hard to draw. Most people apply for one or two species and don’t always apply every year. With a point system those people would make sure they applied for everything that might have an interest in hunting every year as well as making sure their friends and relatives applied every year.

 

[BrianID]

Greenhorn,

I didn’t take any offense to anything you said so there is no need to appologize. Just read my Quote from post #17. I’m just writing the way that I am to get my point across and am not trying to offend anyone and won’t be easily offended myself.
Some places in SE Idaho have a good number of mature bucks but those places are few and far between. The reason why SE Idaho is well represented by the record books is because of the genetics not because there are so many mature bucks. Last winter in some areas I know the F&G only counted 6 or 7 bucks per 100 does (this doesn’t count fawns). A good example of this is the bennet hills area. Only a few B&C bucks were killed in that area in the good old days but after the number of bucks killed in that area was restricted it has been putting out at least a couple B&C bucks almost every year.
I was using the 6 year deal just to point out that I have been hunting these areas recently. I’ll admit that I’m still a fairly young guy (born in 1981) and that many of you have much more experience that me. Some of my first memories are going hunting and fishing with my dad so I have been hunting longer than 6 years. I didn’t say I’ve hunted every unit in eastern Idaho, I said almost every unit.
I also don’t want this thread to sound like I’m whining about the lack of mature bucks. I do work hard looking for mature bucks and I do find them but the real trick is to find them when the season is open. I’m not trying to push my management idea right now either. I will do that when and if I think I have worked out all of the problems with it.

 

[BrianID]

Greenhorn,

By the way thanks for the feedback.

And yes I know I'm a hypocrite but I hope that I have explained that well enough in other posts. Anyone that says there aren't enough bucks or mature bucks and shoots a muley buck whether it is big or small is a hypocrite.

 

[JoseCuervo]

Hey Brian,

Just exactly what is the problem you are trying to solve????

Is it too few "mature" bucks on YOUR wall?

Or is it too few Mule Deer (does, fawns, bucks, forkies, etcc...) walking around the mountains?

Or is it too little of precipitation in SE Idaho the last few Winters?

Or is it TOO MANY deer for the carrying capacity of the land?

I have read your posts, and I can't figure out what you are trying to solve. If you really think there are too few of mature bucks, just put a Two-Point restriction on the units, and don't allow anybody to shoot the big guys. Then in a couple of years, you can have a quality Trophy unit plus you still allow the meat guys to hunt.

Or, better yet, just start charging $150 for a resident deer tag, and eliminate all the pesky meat hunters, and just leave hunting for the dedicated Trophy Guy.

 

[BuzzH]

BrianID,

It seems to me that you at least care about the resource enough to get involved and trying to work out solutions to make the hunting better...thats pretty neat. Not many people do that, most just whine, bitch, and complain about things without trying to work up any type of solution.

As to the deer in ID, I also dont know a whole lot about the problems, but another angle would be to restrict access rather than go to permit only. The angle to take on that is to work on the BLM, FS, and State land offices to close roads, obliterate roads, gate roads, heavily restrict ATV access, etc. etc. etc. Typically the Fish and Game agencies are also pretty receptive to limiting access and providing more secure habitat.

Young mule deer are highly vulnerable, limit the access and you limit the number of those young deer killed. The cool thing is, you dont have to go to a permit only system then, you can still have general seasons.

I personally think that hunting success should not be limited to who draws a permit, but rather by the amount of effort the individual hunter puts in. Trophy class animals dont come easy, and thats the way it should be. The problem most people have with pursuing large animals is their lack of desire, so to compensate for their short-comings and lack of commitment...they want to go to permit only so they can drive down the road and whack a booner out of the truck window or off the seat of an ATV.

Greenhorn probably gave you the best piece of advice on this whole discussion, hunt harder and more remote...go the extra mile or five...you may find that the "good ol' days" are right now...

 

[Handloader]

Nice Buck

 

[BrianID]

I haven’t been hunting half as long or killed half as many mule deer as many of you but that doesn't mean that I don’t understand what is going on. I’m not pissed at the F&G because I didn’t get a big buck this year. I still saw a few mature bucks this year but I think with better management I could see more mature bucks. I think your getting the wrong idea of why I started this thread. I just had a different management idea that I thought more hunters would like than the current management of mule deer in Idaho and was just looking for some feed back from the rest of you and appreciate even the negative feedback. I only think this management idea is a good idea if all of my assumptions are correct. Here’s a list of these assumptions.

1) Over a period of several years most of the mule deer bucks are killed by a small number of the hunter. I don’t have any data to back it up but an example would be 30% of the hunters kill 70% of the bucks.

2) most of these hunters that kill deer every year are looking for larger bucks but usually settle for a smaller buck whether that is a 2 point or a 170” class buck.

3) these hunters that are killing most of the deer would shoot less bucks if it meant they wouldn’t get to hunt the year after they killed a buck.

4) most of the guys that buy deer tags in Idaho would like to see the F&G improve the way they manage mule deer.

5) a large majority of the hunters would like this idea and be willing to “site out a year” if they killed a buck if it meant they would see more bucks and more mature bucks when they did hunt.

Considering all of the negative feedback I could be wrong about assumption #5. I don’t think I am wrong about assumptions 1, 2, 3 & 4. Since these are assumptions and I don’t have much data to back it up all of these assumptions could be wrong.

The bottom line is that I think the F&G are allowing hunters to kill too many mule deer bucks in most general season units. I think most deer hunters in Idaho would agree with this statement but like I said earlier I could be wrong. When the F&G restrict the number of bucks hunters kill they are going to make some hunters mad. The trick is to find a management idea that will minimize the number of hunters mad at the F&G and maximize the number of hunters happy with the F&G. I wouldn’t say that I’m mad at the way the F&G manage mule deer but think it could be improved.

I’ll try to answer your questions so you don’t get the wrong idea.

Is it too few "mature" bucks on YOUR wall?

answer: No

Or is it too few Mule Deer (does, fawns, bucks, forkies, etcc...) walking around the mountains?

There are too few Mule Deer walking in the mountains but like I said earlier people have been trying to solve this problem without being very effective. We do have some control on how many bucks there are and I think the number of bucks needs to be increased in most units.

Or is it too little of precipitation in SE Idaho the last few Winters?

Like I said earlier the drought is the main reason there is a lack of mature bucks in SE Idaho but we don’t have any control over that so let’s focus on things we have control over.


I guess what it really comes down to the questions
“Are there too few bucks and/or mature bucks in most of the general season units?”

“Are hunters willing to kill fewer bucks to increase the number of bucks and number of mature bucks?”

I think there are too few bucks and too few mature bucks in most general season units and I think most hunters are willing to kill fewer bucks if given a management plan that they like. More likely that not the F&G is going to have to eventually have to restrict mule deer hunters even more than they do now. If you want a voice in what happens you are going to have to step up. Most of us know that once the F&G has a “proposal” it takes a lot of pressure from hunters to even have a chance at getting the F&G to reject the proposal.

 

[BrianID]

I just read some of my posts and they are more blunt that I would want them to be. I'm not trying to come across as being pissed off because I'm not. I'm not trying to offend anyone and haven't been offended myself. I guess when I type things up like this I come across a little (but probably a lot) more blunt that if I was talking to someone face to face.

 

[supersider34]

Brian i do alot of spring baiting for bears and see alot of deer. I have seen some whoppers even into July when out and about up in every unit I have been in. I have friends that smoke mature bucks on a yearly basis. They know the area's they hunt and have hunted them for years. I have seen lots of mature bucks during hunting season also. Some that people would be happy to take. I dont try for them as I suck at shooting a rifle and dont shoot very far with a rifle. Believe me give me a bow any day. At least i know I have to be close enough to hit them.
But I take everything in stride of what F&G does.
As for your #5 I have brought it up and I have not met one hunter that think that would be good or they think that would piss them off.
I think the mature bucks are there and some area's just dont have them. Find new spots and get farther off the road. I also have friends that go without before they fill there tag. My brother did it this year holding off for a good one.
So hunt harder and do more scouting in different area's. They are there.

 

[BrianID]

Supersider,

I didn't want this thread to sound like I was whining that there aren't any mature bucks the general season units, I just don't think there are enough of them. I’m not the least bite bitter that I didn’t get to wrap my tag around some thick horns this year, I just had an idea that I thought would make more hunters happy and increases the health of the herd. In a lot of these units younger bucks are doing most of the breading which in turn can result in poor fawn survival the next year.
As a result of the drought the deer SE region are also not doing as well as the deer in the Magic Valley region which I think explains our differences in opinion. I have a few areas that I have consistently seen older bucks year after year but there are also a lot of spots that I don't see half as many bucks as I did a few years ago. I know deer populations are cyclic but I think the F&G needs to be a little more aggressive when things go bad. You guys have started to make me doubt whether this idea would even work but I still think it would be a very good idea to give hunters an incentive not to shoot last day bucks.
Thanks all of you for your impute. If anyone else has some ideas I would like to hear them.

 

[supersider34]

The bad thing is most people will try to hold off on taking a small buk till the end for meat. I have friends that do this also. Like when you hear a story of a guy dropping his expectations on the size of an animal. I have no qualm on holding off on big bucks. But it only makes me search even more. Taking an animal is why we do have hunting rights. But I see to many people that want horns. What majority hunt for horns? Not many. even though all my friends want them most just want to harvest.
I dont condemn people for wanting to set limits on wanting mature animals. Some units can not handle wintering range if we happen upon a hard winter. So to say to change the hunting then would condemn some deer. To step up and say to hold different hunting things just remember what it could push hunting into. Then they will step into every other year for elk and everything else. I think we as Idaho goes has a pretty good set up of seasons right now. If you have the time you can hunt everything and have a chance at some good animals. I have chosen deer as my hobby for watching. Some people dont live close enough to put a ton of time into looking for big bucks. I for one wish during the spring I was closer to my bear bait.
Just remember what you wish for in wanting to set up seasons. Can turn all in to bad situations.

 

[JoseCuervo]

Brian,

You might re-check your assumptions, as I doubt most of the hunters are really looking for Trophy horns. I think way toooooo many people are caught up in posting bigger pictures of bigger deer. |oo

Most hunters, IMO, are not looking for a bigger deer every two years, but instead, are looking for a "quality" experience EVERY year. If you have the opportunity to hunt every year and to perhaps, every so often, whack a big one, I think most people are satisfied.

Look at Nevada and Gambling as an example. The casinos know very well that to keep the maximum number of people sitting in front of the slot machines, they have to pay off the 2 coin winner every so often. So, while it is the MegaBucks Million payoff that everybody wants to win, it is the 2 cherries that pay off a couple of nickels just often enough to keep you interested in the game. You may never hit the three Sevens or the Triple Bars that pay off the $millions, but if you hit the two's and five's once in awhile, you keep dreaming.

If you can follow the above, you realize that people want to hunt (or play slot machines) every year, and they want the low pay-off often enough to keep them interested. And they want to know that the 35" buck is out there, as they heard from somebody about somebody's uncle who works with a guy who's daughter dated a kid that breaks horses for a guy that shot it. That "rumour" of the big one is what keeps us dreaming, and the occasional 2 pt or 4x3 keeps us interested.

My 12 year old daughter shot a "meat" deer this year in YOUR eyes. In her eyes it was a TROPHY (mine too). Either way, how do you get youngsters to keep hunting if you have to tell them they can't hunt next year??? Just like you shoot forkies so you can learn how to cut up meat, my kid is shooting "either sex" so she can learn how to climb mountains, glass for deer, put on a sneak, and calm her nerves so she can squeeze a trigger, but most of all, learn how to enjoy hunting and the animals out doors. I would far prefer to have her hunt EVERY year, than wait every other year. Who knows what a 14 year old will be interested in doing in two years???

And I too, shot a "last day" buck, on the last afternoon of the season. But that doesn't mean I had to shoot forkies, as I passed them up, as if I am gonna shoot a "meat buck", you might as well get a lot of meat....

And again, not to call you a hypocrite, but why would YOU shoot the meat buck? If you just want to learn how to gut an animal, go to the local livestock sale yard and bid on a sheep. For $40 you can get you a nice big wooly one, take it out to the desert, and put a bullet in it. Then you can learn how to skin, quarter, and pack meat. You don't need to impact the Mule Deer populations for your knife educations.

 

[Wyodeerhunter]

Elkgunner,
Buy a sheep and shoot it? Why not have a little fun with it first ?

 

[BrianID]

Wyodeerhunter,

We don't want to know what you are doing with those sheep that get lost in wyoming. hump

 

[BrianID]

elkgunner,

I never thought about buying a sheep and butchering. That would give me some more experience on how to cut up an animal but I think I'll pass on that and keep on practicing on deer and elk . I think you know exactly why I shot a little buck on the last day. You just want to hear me say it . I'll admit that it is much more fun to hunt if I get to pull the trigger every now and then. I'd be willing to pull the trigger less often if other hunters would and I think a lot of other hunters would agree with me on this statement.

I'm not saying that most hunters are looking for trophy horns but I think most of the guys that are consistently killing deer don't shoot the first two point they see and often end up with a smaller buck than they were looking for. I really think it would be beneficial to give these guys a reason to not shoot "last day bucks" whether it is something like I mentioned earlier or something different. Sure there are enough bucks for everyone that is willing to work for one but why not make the deer herds more healthy and hunters happier with management if possible?

There are a couple things that neither of us agree on or can prove to each other but for the most part I think we are on the same page.

 

[BrianID]

supersider,

I've put some thought into the "be careful what you wish" statement you and others have been telling me. I would agree that things could easily become a lot worse than they are now but I don’t think that is a reason that we shouldn’t try to improve them. I still think a statewide controlled hunt for deer work better than states like AZ and NV. Idaho has more deer/hunter than either of those states and doesn’t have a preference/bonus point system so statistically we would still get to hunt deer more often than residents of AZ and NV as long as the units weren’t managed so hunters could just drive down the road and shoot a big buck. If all of the units were managed like units 54, 55 and 57 then rifle hunters should be able to draw a tag every 2 - 4 years with the average guy drawing a tag closer to every 2 years than every 4 years. Most archery hunters could hunt mule deer every year and muzzleloader hunters would fall somewhere in between. I think this could be improved by instead of guys that drew an antler controlled hunt the year being excluded in the draw the following year exclude the guys from the draw that killed an buck the year before. I think this would give most guys ample incentive to stop shooting last day bucks as long as they had a good chance (1 in 2 or 1 in 3) of drawing a tag the following year. The controlled hunt system also has the advantage of giving the F&G better control over how many deer hunters kill when the a drought or winterkill reduce the number of deer. I don't think a controlled hunt system is the solution because it could easily become as bad as it is in other states if:

1) It was managed in a way that hunters could only draw a deer tag 1 or 2 times every 10 years.

2) USO forced the F&G to give nonresidents an equal chance at the tags.

3) A preference/bonus point system was adopted by the F&G.

I’m sure that there are a few other things that could go wrong. I’m still a little hesitant to push for a statewide controlled hunt system even though I think it could be better than what we have now. Even if every region was managed similar to the Magic Valley Region it would be better that what we have now. For the most part the areas that I hunt (SE region & Upper Snake Region) are managed mostly for guys that think they have a right to shoot a deer every year with a rifle and hunters with other opinions have less opportunity than guys hunting the Magic Valley region.

If there hadn’t been a drought in SE Idaho or any major winter kill over the last 5 years then I wouldn’t have start a thread like this because I would be quite content. I think guys that hunt the SE region aren’t very happy with the way mule deer are being managed and guys that hunt in the other regions don’t have as much to complain about. The F&G have done some good things to help out the deer in this region but like I said earlier, if it is possible why not try to do something to make it better.

I don’t hunt for horns and I agree with you that very few hunters hunt for horns. Unlike 30 or 50 years ago, today very few deer hunters in Idaho are hunting for meat either. We hunt because we like to hunt. I still think it would be beneficial to give hunters some incentive to not shoot a last day buck.

One last thing I would like to add is that I don't think I know how to manage the deer herds and that I can do a better job than the F&G. I also don't think I'm going to get much accomplished by posting this on an internet forum besides learning a few things myself. I do think we as hunters should be involved in the management plans and fight for what we think is best.

 

[supersider34]

Brian who is to say how big a buck is? Some guys look for bigger than a average Joe. I know a guy that has killed about 15 bucks in 30 yrs of hunting but all the bucks are over 26".
But you have to realize that pulling the trigger on a small animal then its your finger that pulled it. If you wouldnt of shot one then there might be off spring from that buck. Then my brother Eddie Shane and some others I can name that didnt harvest either because they didnt harvest a small buck or last day buck. I believe there are more people that let small ones walk than you think. So you have to remember that. As for this plan I dont think F&G would go for it as it would lose revenue for there funding. Not as many hunters hunting loses money for them. Also the grocers you buy groceries from. Or the gas stations you buy gas from. Lots of people would lose money on that deal. I am sure they wouldnt go broke but it would be noticed.
Kind of a funny deal.