Northwestern Players Unionize

[BuzzH]

There is a lot of truth in what you are saying: I'll go one step farther than your/my opinion on the NCAA, how about our politicians in Washington?

What can a union do better than what is being done now - I can't think of anything. Someone has to provide the funds and it can't be wishful thinking.

The right to collective bargaining on a level playing field...to at least have an equal voice at the negotiating table.

Make the colleges commit to the basics. Taking care of their athletes long-term when they get trashed on the field, allowing them to choose majors, etc.

 

[roadhunter]

Buzz,

Do you think schools like Montana can afford to do this? Wyoming?

I don't. The numbers I have seen amounted to 2-5 million $ per school per year which basically would be picked up by taxpayers or student fees at schools like Montana and Wyoming.

I think we are talking about 50-100 of the bigger and richer schools in the country who could actually afford this. Beyond that there is not enough money generated by the kids at FCS or D-3 schools do allow any of this to happen. So in the end we are talking about the schools in the ACC, SEC, PAC, B1G, and Big 12. You might possibly be able to include BYU and a few other like UConn, and Cinci.

The mid major FBS schools, FCS schools, D-3 schools, JuCo kids, and Community college kids are not creating the same income for the schools that other kids from power conferences do.

Once you figure out which schools can afford to do this then you have to look at which sports deserve to be paid. All? Just revenue generating sports? FB and MBB? Rodeo? Volleyball?

Once you decide what teams deserve to be paid then you decide which kids. Every player? Just full scholarship players? Walk on? Only those who played in games? Practice squad? Injured? Red shirt?

I'm not sure what will work best but to pretend that all colleges are alike and all student athletes are alike is simply not true. Treating them all with 1 set of rules seems impossible to me.

http://www.cbssports.com/collegefoo...loser-bcs-types-push-low-revenue-schools-away

 

[Southwind]

This ruling was only for private universities but it classifies them as employees which then means that scholarship worth $250K is now taxable income.

Yes, coaches make more than teachers but sports bring in money and more students. Since last years final 4 run by Wichita State student applications went up 80%. No advertising campaign will get you that. Higher education is a very competitive business..

 

[smarandr]

This ruling was only for private universities but it classifies them as employees which then means that scholarship worth $250K is now taxable income.

Maybe.

This is a good read regarding some of the consequences both of the intended and unintended variety.

http://msn.foxsports.com/college-football/story/six-crucial-questions-after-ncaa-takes-another-body-blow-032614

 

[Zach]

So when are colleges going to hold their first HS draft?

 

[cowboy]

So do you feel its right to just allow the Universities/coaches/NCAA to dictate every part of a college althletes life for 4-5 years and not allow them to negotiate any part of it?

Does your employer tell you how much you need to excercise? Do they control your diet? Do they control where you live?

Do you feel its right for the NCAA to clear 500 million a year in profits off the backs of college athletes without assuring them some sort medical care that if they're injured long-term the college doesnt choose to just kick them to the curb?

Should college FB players have a choice in picking their majors? Should scholastics be a priority over their next football game? Should the Universities be making sure their athletes at least graduate from College?

The bottom line is that the NCAA/Universitites/coaches are taking severe advantage of a good portion of their athletes. Theres huge profit it in for those making the decisions and IMO, the basic right to negotiate on your own behalf is not there. These kids diets, excercise, majors, etc. etc. etc. are being forced on them.

I agree with cowboy that this could turn into a big old mess. However, if you dont think that the NCAA/Universities/coaches are taking advantage of the dictatorship they enjoy...well, thats having your head in the sand.

To each and every question that you posed - how can a union do a better job than what is currently being done?
Would you hesitate a guess how many union BA's it would take to get this accomplished? And lastly - follow the money trail, how do you anticipate this whole thing would actually be funded?

This is coming from a guy that had 2 major surgeries in 4 years of college football and am now paying the price physically - should I have recourse to go back to my college 40 years later because I have some long term effects?

To answer your questions on a lot of the above - yes, kids now days still have a say in their major, in what they eat, scholastics over athletics, etc. - it depends on where you choose to go to school and the coaching staff - been there, done that with 2 of my kids.

Not to change the course of this discussion - but parents need to be parents even when their kids are in college. I had everything to say about my kids' education - some I agreed to and they knew better than to try and BS their mother and me - we'd both been through it.

We're acting like "all" these kids are being taken advantage of - just not the case in overall percentages in my opinion. If the alumni and boosters got out of sports than we could go back to scholastics before athletics.

And as far as the NCAA, don't get me started on that Mickey Mouse operation - their worse than the gustapo. One of the worse NCAA rules is to impose coaching violations on a staff, penalize the athletes and the coaching staff moves on to another location with nothing following them in way of sanctions. We have become a society of "WIN BABY WIN".

In a couple 4-6 years we'll have this discussion again after the lawyers get adequately compensated.

 

[BuzzH]

cowboy,

I agree with you on parents being parents...but what happens with a top high school athlete who's parents are dead, not around, are in prison, etc. What chance do they have to negotiate with university? A coach?

It was great that you were involved enough to take care of your kids, many kids arent afforded that luxury of parents that look out for them.

Who represents those that have no living parents, dead beat parents, or parents that are in prison?

Theres no stop-gap there, and I can assure you, an athlete sitting down, alone at the table to negotiate anything with a coach, trainer, university, or NCAA, is dead in the water. They do as they're told or they can leave.

 

[cowboy]

cowboy,

I agree with you on parents being parents...but what happens with a top high school athlete who's parents are dead, not around, are in prison, etc. What chance do they have to negotiate with university? A coach?

It was great that you were involved enough to take care of your kids, many kids arent afforded that luxury of parents that look out for them.

Who represents those that have no living parents, dead beat parents, or parents that are in prison?

Theres no stop-gap there, and I can assure you, an athlete sitting down, alone at the table to negotiate anything with a coach, trainer, university, or NCAA, is dead in the water. They do as they're told or they can leave.

The same thing happens every day with kids that are not athletes. Society doesn't owe anybody anything. I hope my tax dollars never go towards union college athletics.

All I'm saying is that in the 40 years I have been associated with unions I don't see any union helping these kids negotiating squat diddle - they may rear their head and raise hell after an incident but that's it - and they ain't going to get involved without the almighty "money" factor.
I have a very old fashion attitude that you go to college for an education first - not athletics. I would guess that it is less than 1 in 20,000 kids that you are referring to as premier athletes as well as underprivileged. This is a cruel thing to say but a lot of these premier underprivileged athletes would do much better in life after sports if they had gone to a trade school that would provide a foundation for them financially.

Buzz: take your old alma mater - the U of M proposed their own penalty on the football team, NCAA accepted their offer. Now the alumni/boosters are raising cane and have petitioned the Pres. and athletic director of the U to protest the penalty to the NCAA that the penalty was too extreme and did not fit the situation. How would have a union been beneficial in that whole fiasco.

 

[MattK]

cowboy- The one place that a union may have been beneficial is standing up for the athletes and the athlete's interests. The one group that was not at the table at all in the discussion between the NCAA and the UM administration was the student athletes. They get absolutely no say in the "penalties" but they are the ones ultimately that are the most effected by the decision. It may be in the way of changing positions because of loss of scholarships or the inability to play in championship games or the "loss" of a playoff game that effects their personal records and statistics. Student/players may even get labeled by some of these decisions...ie NCAA violations don't just effect the head coach or administration.

 

[roadhunter]

The same thing happens every day with kids that are not athletes. Society doesn't owe anybody anything. I hope my tax dollars never go towards union college athletics.

All I'm saying is that in the 40 years I have been associated with unions I don't see any union helping these kids negotiating squat diddle - they may rear their head and raise hell after an incident but that's it - and they ain't going to get involved without the almighty "money" factor.
I have a very old fashion attitude that you go to college for an education first - not athletics. I would guess that it is less than 1 in 20,000 kids that you are referring to as premier athletes as well as underprivileged. This is a cruel thing to say but a lot of these premier underprivileged athletes would do much better in life after sports if they had gone to a trade school that would provide a foundation for them financially.

Buzz: take your old alma mater - the U of M proposed their own penalty on the football team, NCAA accepted their offer. Now the alumni/boosters are raising cane and have petitioned the Pres. and athletic director of the U to protest the penalty to the NCAA that the penalty was too extreme and did not fit the situation. How would have a union been beneficial in that whole fiasco.

+1. Not sure how we went from unions and player benefits to how to help kids who don't have parents in their lives. I am also not sure what these kids "negotiate" with coaches and trainers. I guess if you think that kids with no parents to help them are made to do things other kids who do have involved parents you might have a point but I dont' think that is actually happening, never heard of such.

 

[WBouldin]

I really think it is the nature of the beast. Not everything is going to perfect and nothing is free. Okay you get to go to Northwestern which in most cases is for free or very low cost to these players, that is your payment that is your reward! Theres no reason to be asking for more. There is a price that comes with it and even if the circumstances were as bad as Buzz has so kindly imagined up, then tough shit, deal with it, youre getting a premier education for free!!! Guess who doesnt get benefits? Me and I PAY to go to school so I drive their revenue eventhough it is obviously not as much as the athletes.

Its absolute bullshit and zero surprise that the number one union dog on HT is supporting it because what you guys do not understand is that enough is enough and you do not ask for more. Maybe if the other 60% of athletes starting staying for graduation it would be worth examing but for these kids (and the ones who dont graduate have the highest scholarships and help than those who do) to piss away this golden opportunity and then have the nerve to ask for more for that one or two seasons theyll be there is ridiculous.

This IS the pussification of America and its disgusting. Notice whos not complaining about this? The white center whos graduating with a 3.97 in marketing and has played all four years...you know who is? One kid backed by thugs are drug charges who leave after a season to go play scout D in the CFL....

 

[noharleyyet]

...based upon the USPS success story, here's your future product.

 

[idnative1948]

Would have been even better if it was down by a river somewhere.

...based upon the USPS success story, here's your future product.

 

[noharleyyet]

http://ctmirror.org/uconns-napier-on-altheletes-unionizing/

Wondering if Shabazz is a communications major.

 

[EODRay]

So do you feel its right to just allow the Universities/coaches/NCAA to dictate every part of a college althletes life for 4-5 years and not allow them to negotiate any part of it?

Does your employer tell you how much you need to excercise? Do they control your diet? Do they control where you live?

Yes, Yes and Yes. They also control what I wear, how I have to cut my hair, who I can fraternize with, can come check out my living conditions whenever they want, etc, etc, etc. They can even keep me from doing things that are perfectly legal for other people. Like not wearing a motorcycle helmet or smoking spice. I don't even have the option of walking out the door and quitting any time I want. If I did that, they could put me in jail and ruin my chances for future employment.

If you don't like the deal, don't do it! I don't really see where unions would help this situation in any way other than driving up ticket prices, tickets, etc. I was also a scholarship athlete is college. Do I think that the NCAA is a greedy busted system…..Yes. Do I think that there needs to be some changes to some of the things mentioned here…..Yes. I just don't think that unions are the answer for that.

While I'm by no means a fan of Jonny Manziel, it makes no sense to me that a person can't make money off of his identity from the fame he has created through his abilities. He can't even get paid to sign his name. It's his name but the NCAA controls the use of it.

Guess what? There are plenty of things that make no sense to me about the military as well. I could make an argument that I am not properly compensated for the things that I provide as well……so could most of you. I could argue that the pay and retirement benefits for officers and enlisted Soldiers is disproportionate to the work and value that each provides. That being said, I chose to stay enlisted because it was what I would rather do. That's the system in place and I make my choices about what I want to do.

This whole "World owes me a living" crap really chaps my hide. We are creating a welfare society where people are constantly thinking that they deserve better than what they get. You don't deserve anything and will only get what you earn……or at least that's how it should be. Even then, this world isn't fair and never will be!

 

[BuzzH]

BBD92,

The NLRB doesnt agree with you...

BTW, what gives YOU the right determine when enough is enough? All your vast experience?

 

[TLC]

So do you feel its right to just allow the Universities/coaches/NCAA to dictate every part of a college althletes life for 4-5 years and not allow them to negotiate any part of it?

Does your employer tell you how much you need to excercise? Do they control your diet? Do they control where you live?

Do you feel its right for the NCAA to clear 500 million a year in profits off the backs of college athletes without assuring them some sort medical care that if they're injured long-term the college doesnt choose to just kick them to the curb?

Should college FB players have a choice in picking their majors? Should scholastics be a priority over their next football game? Should the Universities be making sure their athletes at least graduate from College?

The bottom line is that the NCAA/Universitites/coaches are taking severe advantage of a good portion of their athletes. Theres huge profit it in for those making the decisions and IMO, the basic right to negotiate on your own behalf is not there. These kids diets, excercise, majors, etc. etc. etc. are being forced on them.

I agree with cowboy that this could turn into a big old mess. However, if you dont think that the NCAA/Universities/coaches are taking advantage of the dictatorship they enjoy...well, thats having your head in the sand.

could be wrong here, but doesn't the athlete get to make the decisions BEFORE he decides what college to go to? if he doesn't like what he's being offered at montana, then he makes the decision, to go to wyoming. these kids know before signing on the dotted line, what they will and will not get. about as basic a negotiating tool that there is. either sign, or don't.

 

[MattK]

TLC- Couple things...Unless you are a marque player, there may be a limited amount of Universities that are offering scholarships. Once you sign on the dotted line, the University may change a lot about the staff (ie. head coach). You may sign because of Nick Saban and end up with first year head coach. The NCAA makes it so you can't switch teams without sitting out a year or drop a division. Again, you have no real choice. The fact is, once you sign, you do as they say. It's a "shut up and play" mentality. I think it's about time that players stand up for themselves. The NCAA is a billion dollar industry. If you get hurt as a player, you may or may not get to finish your scholarship (depends on the school) and your blown knee, concussion, etc. may effect you for the rest of your life but the NCAA's job stops when the scholarship ends. One of the main things these athletes want is better medical care. I don't blame them one bit. The irony is, everyone wants athletes to act as a "team" except anywhere off the field.

BBD92- BTW, it's the QB from Northwestern (Kain Colter) that is getting this started, not a thug...

 

[roadhunter]

TLC- Couple things...Unless you are a marque player, there may be a limited amount of Universities that are offering scholarships. Once you sign on the dotted line, the University may change a lot about the staff (ie. head coach). You may sign because of Nick Saban and end up with first year head coach. The NCAA makes it so you can't switch teams without sitting out a year or drop a division. Again, you have no real choice. The fact is, once you sign, you do as they say. It's a "shut up and play" mentality. I think it's about time that players stand up for themselves. The NCAA is a billion dollar industry. If you get hurt as a player, you may or may not get to finish your scholarship (depends on the school) and your blown knee, concussion, etc. may effect you for the rest of your life but the NCAA's job stops when the scholarship ends. One of the main things these athletes want is better medical care. I don't blame them one bit. The irony is, everyone wants athletes to act as a "team" except anywhere off the field.

BBD92- BTW, it's the QB from Northwestern (Kain Colter) that is getting this started, not a thug...

This is not entirely true. There are situations where coaches leave and kids are allowed to transfer and play immediately. Also kids who have graduated can transfer as well. Allowing these kids to switch schools every time they want is not reasonable either.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/sport...notre-dame-brian-kelly-transfer-ncaa/2603615/
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/25/s...ate-players-and-recruits-rush-is-on.html?_r=0

Shut up and play? You guys are simply not being realistic about what happens. These are not slaves. If anything they are treated like royalty on campus with special housing and food options that other students dont' have.

If you get injured you can't finish school? That is not entirely true either. I know of a situation where a kid injured his back lifting and was never going to play again and the school continued to honor his scholarship. This happens regularly, even for kids who never played a down.
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...haws-scholarship-despite-career-ending-injury

I think you guys have a twisted view of what goes on. These kids work their but off to earn the chance to play for these schools. They exercise, lift, go to camps, work on diet, etc... on their own. Nobody forces them to do anything. College is just an extension of what they already did on their own in High School.

Again this will have nothing to do with schools like Montana or MSU. FCS programs simply don't have the resources to do any of this.

 

[roadhunter]

could be wrong here, but doesn't the athlete get to make the decisions BEFORE he decides what college to go to? if he doesn't like what he's being offered at montana, then he makes the decision, to go to wyoming. these kids know before signing on the dotted line, what they will and will not get. about as basic a negotiating tool that there is. either sign, or don't.

Yes. They have a choice and can leave at any time if they dont' like it.

I still have no idea what Buzz is referring to these kids "negotiating" with coaches and trainers. There is nothing to negotiate. The rules and regulations for practice schedules are predetermined by the NCAA. The rules in the dorms they stay in are predetermined by the school. We don't need kids deciding how to run universities and athletic departments.