Non-resident outfitter license (MT) Bill is up for hearing 2/2/2021 (SB 143)

[Deleted member 28227]

I agree, and who was it again that passed those laws?

For the record, I drove 1400 miles to testify against the come-home-to-hunt tags.

Totally.

I'm just saying we now have I would not be suprised if next session MT bans all NR from WY/ID/WA/CO cause you know... DIY.

• Landowner Sponsored Deer License
• Come Home to Hunt License
• Nonresident Native License
• Youth Combination License
• Nonresident Student Hunters
• Outfitter Sponsored Licenses

 

[257 Wby Mag]

then we have the less than 1/2 price student licenses!! God damn where’s it end???

 

[BourbonSnowCone]

Most outfitters I know overbook every year because of the NR draw. If an outfitter is full can these NRs who didn’t draw but booked a hunt go with another outfitter? How many “bookings” are being sold right now and backdated to March? Lots of places to exploit this bill.

 

[BuzzH]

late 80’s?? Just wow...

Right, long before you even knew where it was...

Much better hunting in Blaine County than the IX, then, and now.

 

[257 Wby Mag]

Are those what regular non residents pay?? Remember buzzy boy, if buzz says something, you can take it to the bank!

 

[257 Wby Mag]

Right, long before you even knew where it was...

Much better hunting in Blaine County than the IX, then, and now.

Judging from your pics, I’d have to say your full of shit, again.

 

[BuzzH]

Totally.

I'm just saying we now have, I would not be suprised if next session MT bans all NR from WY/ID/WA/CO cause you know... DIY.

• Landowner Sponsored Deer License
• Come Home to Hunt License
• Nonresident Native License
• Youth Combination License
• Nonresident Student Hunters
• Outfitter Sponsored Licenses

Right, and at this point who cares?

The FWP doesn't, the Legislature doesn't, the Residents don't.

I mean, then Montana passes a law that allows 9 more days of hunting, so there must be plenty of wildlife to go around.

Montana has added youth days, Saturday opener, and 6 month shoulder seasons.

Why does it matter how many tags they sell?

I think the best move now is to just open it up, kill what's left and call it a day. Give anyone a tag that wants one. Montana is all but there anyway...and seems what the citizens and legislature want.

Why fight the monster?

 

[Wildabeest]

So if outfitters don’t manage to get their clients to buy up those 3,000 licenses this year, will they go into the leftover pool? Asking for a friend...

 

[BuzzH]

Judging from your pics, I’d have to say your full of shit, again.

you're...and you're still in the weeds.

 

[Ben Lamb]

It was not the outfitters who broke the trust. Ballot initiative 161 broke the trust.

You mean except in instances like 2009 when MOGA was looking for more welfare tags.

https://leg.mt.gov/bills/2009/minutes/Senate/090219FIS_Sm1.pdf

 

[BuzzH]

And then we have the non res native licenses, that are less than half price and unlimited... out in the weeds huh??

Don't blow a gasket...I shot several bucks and bulls with $64 NR deer tags and $80 NR elk tags...

 

[Ben Lamb]

You mean except in instances like 2009 when MOGA was looking for more welfare tags.

https://leg.mt.gov/bills/2009/minutes/Senate/090219FIS_Sm1.pdf

I can also go through previous sessions to look at all the BOO changes that MOGA requested , etc to give up transparency & actual oversight, as well as other bills relative to the elimination of FWP's ability to set LE permits in the breaks if that helps jog the memory on who was breaking what trust, when.

But ultimately, this is how everyone ends up blind. The longer both hunters & outfitters hang on to their hatred of each other, the more the legislature will step in to make things worse.

 

[257 Wby Mag]

Buzzy boy, aka dink killer, are those prices regular non resident fees? Everything spelled correctly Karen?

 

[Carnage2011]

Judging from your pics, I’d have to say your full of shit, again.

I’ll take that bet....you can have the IX and I’ll hunt the same place Buzz is talking about. Hell, Chris can guide you on the IX and I will put 10k down that I would kill a bigger bull.
It’s too bad it’s hypothetical and we probably won’t have tags the same year...I’d love to take your coin.

 

[257 Wby Mag]

I’ll take that bet....you can have the IX and I’ll hunt the same place Buzz is talking about. Hell, Chris can guide you on the IX and I will put 10k down that I would kill a bigger bull.
It’s too bad it’s hypothetical and we probably won’t have tags the same year...I’d love to take your coin.

Buzzy boy, is that you? I seriously hope you kill bigger bucks than the buzz crew, I do, year after quite handily, diy. You do suck a mean ass though!!

 

[antlerradar]

Yes, and no.

In 2011, there were over 120 bills introduced on just wildlife. Bills that would have eliminated the bundled permits for the breaks, done away with state mgt of wolves, eliminated access programs, etc. 2013 saw lower numbers, but the same attacks.

2009, 2011 saw attacks on stream access. 2011, 2013, 2015, 2017, 2019, 2021 all saw attacks on Habitat Montana as well as bills being introduced to make management of elk & deer far worse than it is today. Meanwhile, most sportsmen's organizations can't get bills out of committee because of partisan gridlock and the fear that if something good happens, somehow "the libtards" are going to win.

This is a cluster-#*^@#* rodeo well over 20 years in the making. Attacks on access have been happening repeatedly by the legislature & in some instances, trade organizations & ag groups. Attacks on management have been from those same groups & clusters of politicians. In that time (let's say 2009 to present), there have been a handful of victories on access that were the result of lawsuits brought to open up illegally closed roads, or through legislative battles. Brian Schweitzer's use of Habitat Montana to purchase WMA's is still used as an attack on Habitat MT by legislators who don't even know how the property tax side of FWP works, or what those lands were destined for because their pervious owners wanted to leave all of Montana better off.

Meanwhile, attempts to improve management have been met with political bluster from special interests who prefer the current system as it benefits them more than the general public.

I get that it's frustrating to constantly hear no from the hunting community, but when the same rejected ideas are brought back with no real interest in dialog, then there is little left to do but retreat into corners and come out swinging. I think folks have been at each other's throats for so long, we tend to forget that reasonable outcomes can occur if we all sit down together and honestly advocate for what we want. That's a shame, especially because I think the more mainstream ag groups would take the opportunity to find common ground.

Title 87, the section of the Montana Code Annotated, is one of the thickest sections of code in Montana state law. It's a dumpster fire of bad ideas & vengeful legislation, and it makes every conversation impossible because of the political malfeasance of the legislature over the last 20 years (Going back to Barret's objectives bill). Management won't change until the laws are reformed.

The reality on access is the current programs work great, but the funding levels are low. Raising Block to $25K is a good start and I'm glad that was added back into HB 637, but to try and lay all of this crap on the feet of sportsmen completely ignores the antagonistic atmosphere that all of this work is done in.

It may be time for an initiative if the Legislature refuses to enact reasonable reforms to title 87 and get rid of all of the mission creep and specialized handouts, etc that have overtaken what should be pretty stream-lined code. 2023 is going to be another roller-coaster and if sportsmen are smart, they'll start working on reform bills now, rather than wait until we're attacked at the legislature once again for simply standing up for the public trust.

All of what you say is true, What I am getting at is the more time each side spends on trying have government legislate them a bigger slice of the wildlife pie the longer it will be until we fix what is broken.
We need to start managing game animals for the benefit of game animals and quit managing animals for the benefit of the people or hunters.(opportunity management). As long as the management philosophy of FWP is game is to be managed for the opportunity of the people, the more we the people are going to fight over who gets most of the pie.

 

[sacountry]

All of what you say is true, What I am getting at is the more time each side spends on trying have government legislate them a bigger slice of the wildlife pie the longer it will be until we fix what is broken.
We need to start managing game animals for the benefit of game animals and quit managing animals for the benefit of the people or hunters.(opportunity management). As long as the management philosophy of FWP is game is to be managed for the opportunity of the people, the more we the people are going to fight over who gets most of the pie.

I think that would require FWP leadership to be elected, not appointed, and we'd have to remove legislative involvement in wildlife management issues.

 

[Wind Gypsy]

So uh, what would it take to get Matt Mead into the MT governor discussion?

 

[Eric Albus]

This is factually inaccurate. Hotels, restaurants, and grocery stores are also small businesses. This bill results in 3000 people required to stay in elk camp and not those hotels and not eating in those restaurants. This bill takes from them and gives to you. No one needs COVID relief more than those businesses and they also need to pay mortgages and tuitions. You haven't grown the economy, you have just diverted it to yourself. Your stated support for small business is in direct conflict with the actions of this bill. The Government is now dictating where consumers spend their money. If the government forced you to spend your money somewhere you would spin off this planet with socialist rage, yet seem fine as the recipient of the welfare. Imagine going to the liquor store and being told no more do it yourself Jack, you have to go to the bar to drink. This is a terrible bill which is why the process was shady. The bill was dead for a month, inserted the 2nd to last day without notice and no public comment in a totally unrelated bill. This is not what proud people do.

The question is whether the hunting community, the hotels and restaurants, the VRBO owners, the local grocery stores and chambers of commerce decide to come to the fight. The best analogy I can come up with for the long game is the travel agent. They did all the same things when people started being able to book their own trips by requiring airlines to set aside tickets for agents to sell, it worked for a short window of time but now they are the buggy whip manufacturer, a few left to guide the incompetent. The dustbin of history is full of people who fought progress and the good news is that as more and more people learn to do it themselves, less and less will be booking guides, and the middleman will get cut out and market efficiency achieved, the only thing we control is how fast.

Andrew, we have not met, but I will assume that you hold many of the same beliefs as your dad did, he was a genuine good guy and could agree to disagree on certain subjects.

This bill does nothing you suggest. Those 3000 ppl you are worried about were not coming to Montana without the use of an outfitter. They were staying home until this bill passed.

Passage of this will result in those business', outfitter business' and rural Montana communities seeing more money. The amount of money I spend locally on groceries and fuel the months of Sept.-Dec. is staggering. The amount of money my clients spend at Stoughies Bar and Grill, in beautiful downtown Hinsdale is big. Big enough the proprietor pulled me aside last year and made a special point of thanking me for our supporting him. He told me, "with covid the other non-resident hunters staying in town and camping in the park are not coming in at all".

I will agree with whomever said 143 was a better deal(after it was amended to historical use, 40%). It wasn't our team who amended 143 to make it untenable. Had 143 passed nobody would have seen any negative impact to their motel/restaurant/grocery store as you suggest. With 143 the number of hunters going with outfitters would have been static, as would have the number of DIY guys remained static. There would have been no great "leasing of private lands", proof of this is since passage of 161 outfitter leased acreage decreased, and we (outfitters) had basically unlimited license. I can remember a couple years after 161 passed having former clients call in late November, book a hunt and buy a license at Walmart in Miles City. 161's "unintended consequences". Should 143 have been vetted with the adversaries, most likely it should have. I'd like to believe that rational adults(who are few and far between) could come up with a compromise that the sporting community and the outfitting community can live with. There is so little trust on either side that this may be impossible.

I can't foresee the "unintended consequences" of the bill that just passed, but I have no doubt there will be many.

 

[406dn]

We need to start managing game animals for the benefit of game animals and quit managing animals for the benefit of the people or hunters.(opportunity management). As long as the management philosophy of FWP is game is to be managed for the opportunity of the people, the more we the people are going to fight over who gets most of the pie.

While I "liked" your post,,this change will not happen. We might not like it if they did. There are many species of animals that exist in some sort of equilibrium without being hunted, at all.

I do think the days of general elk tags and deer tags has been obsolete for a long time. Also obsolete is the 5 week rifle season. Also, given the advancement in effectiveness of archery equipment, that season could use a second look.

I'd like to see hunters, choose one weapon and then live with it. Archery or rifle,,,,,and now muzzleloader.

Of course those changes won't happen either. Political inertia is very difficult to overcome. We all know that things are on a bad glide path. It will take a crash to make us make tough choices.