Non-resident outfitter license (MT) Bill is up for hearing 2/2/2021 (SB 143)

[sacountry]

Fair enough. Shouldn’t have added the part
about not caring about R vs NR, as you’ve advocated for the DIY guy equally.

@Eric Albus ....big time respect for that mea culpa. One very random thought, perhaps more for MOGA.....what if the BMA program could be enhanced to allow an outfitted lease to be added on relatively short notice?....say for instance, an outfitter commits to a lease and there's not enough NR lottery winners for the outfitter to pay the bills. What if resident hunters were permitted to hunt that lease with heavy, individualized restrictions, like say cow only harvesting, # of hunters/day restrictions, and only available on certain dates (perhaps after the outfitter has served his/her NR clients). I get the BMA compensation would have to be well above average, but if the math worked it might mitigate some of the outfitting risk by providing an additional avenue towards some much needed revenue.

 

[tlowe1209]

I reach out to all of those on the committee....got nothing back but rude replies. Same with folks in Wyoming. Just more whining about how their buddy hadn’t drawn some primo tag in xx years....

 

[ShootsManyBullets]

The extra cash spent on "the outfitters" is kept in coffee cans buried in each and every outfitters backyard.

I really dislike the idea of gov't telling me I have to spend on something I don't need. Kinda like the gov't healthcare debacle/hidden tax.
Nothing against outfitters. I've hunted with them and had some good experiences across the west. Just don't see the need for the state to mandate special status for outfitters. I really haven't seen a compelling argument for the welfare tags.

 

[ShootsManyBullets]

1. Nobody has the number of hunting guides, a guide is a guide. BoO has no way to differentiate hunting guide vs. fishing guide. I would figure 380 active outfitters averaging 2-6 guides, so lets go with high side and say 5, 1900 and my best guess is that number would be high.

2. This is way business works.

3. The current system was working for most of us, until this year. A lot of guys don't have enough people with pref. pts. to draw, so there will be some outfitters looking at a different way to make a living. Such us life, some make it some don't.

In response to #3 - Good news is that those people are building points and can be clients very soon. The outfitters that adapt, market and follow up will do well with people building points. The rest of us are in the same boat with needing points to draw tags.

And to reiterate I enjoy the dialogue you're providing.

 

[Carl 9.3x62]

I could be wrong, but it seems to me what outfitters really want are repeat clients, not new clients each year.

 

[mtmiller]

I’m divided on this. Everyone wants to pinch pennies. How many diy guys stop at the last Walmart, sams club or Costco they have access too before their destination? That money isn’t spent in the community it’s going to some billionaires bank role. I’d say that the local outfitters for example Eric on the the hi-line or Rod down in the Jordan area spend more of the money the make locally at the local grocery stores, tire shops, gas, station, etc than spending out of community. Not to mention this money goes also toward insurance guide’s paychecks, camp cook wages as well. Yes there are some outfitters who may be based out of state but I don’t buy it that the diy guy spends more if they have set a camp up in the mountains.

Couple things. I wouldn’t doubt some of these outfitters do plenty of shopping at Costco, Walmart or Amazon as well. I have no idea if big and Eric do this and really none of my business.
I have been on a couple hunts where a guide was required. Cases of candy bars, mountain house and power bars. They we’re certainly not from the local store. As I mentioned, nothing wrong with this, just an honest discussion.
I am guessing many of DIY folks are sitting down to multiple pizza meals at Eugene’s, hitting the drive thru and getting the #6 supersized, hitting the local DQ for the famous Blizzard, topping of the gas tank every morning while grabbing a coffee, 32oz Mountain Dew and a bag of powdered donuts.
I believe DIY hunters do help support small Montana communities and those $$$ are spread around.
Apologize if grammar/spelling is crap, I don’t type well on a phone.
Carry on.

 

[BourbonSnowCone]

32oz Mountain Dew and a bag of powdered donuts.

That's called November breakfast.

 

[Ben Lamb]

Couple things. I wouldn’t doubt some of these outfitters do plenty of shopping at Costco, Walmart or Amazon as well. I have no idea if big and Eric do this and really none of my business.
I have been on a couple hunts where a guide was required. Cases of candy bars, mountain house and power bars. They we’re certainly not from the local store. As I mentioned, nothing wrong with this, just an honest discussion.
I am guessing many of DIY folks are sitting down to multiple pizza meals at Eugene’s, hitting the drive thru and getting the #6 supersized, hitting the local DQ for the famous Blizzard, topping of the gas tank every morning while grabbing a coffee, 32oz Mountain Dew and a bag of powdered donuts.
I believe DIY hunters do help support small Montana communities and those $$$ are spread around.
Apologize if grammar/spelling is crap, I don’t type well on a phone.
Carry on.

Name one bar in rural MT that isn't flying a bright orange banner every Sept. 1st.

 

[brockel]

Name one bar in rural MT that isn't flying a bright orange banner every Sept. 1st.

Our bars in eastern Montana absolutely bank on the non resident hunters. Just drive down Main Street middle of November and look at the out of state plates. They aren’t here for our beautiful views

 

[Ben Lamb]

Our bars in eastern Montana absolutely bank on the non resident hunters. Just drive down Main Street middle of November and look at the out of state plates. They aren’t here for our beautiful views

Which is a shame, because it's gorgeous out there.

 

[golfer]

Couple things. I wouldn’t doubt some of these outfitters do plenty of shopping at Costco, Walmart or Amazon as well. I have no idea if big and Eric do this and really none of my business.
I have been on a couple hunts where a guide was required. Cases of candy bars, mountain house and power bars. They we’re certainly not from the local store. As I mentioned, nothing wrong with this, just an honest discussion.
I am guessing many of DIY folks are sitting down to multiple pizza meals at Eugene’s, hitting the drive thru and getting the #6 supersized, hitting the local DQ for the famous Blizzard, topping of the gas tank every morning while grabbing a coffee, 32oz Mountain Dew and a bag of powdered donuts.
I believe DIY hunters do help support small Montana communities and those $$$ are spread around.
Apologize if grammar/spelling is crap, I don’t type well on a phone.
Carry on.

I agree with your points Craig- but I guess I have a hard time believing all diy hunters do this. For example, those that bring in a wall tent camp for ten days and stay there with their handful of hunting partners. I’d venture to say some is spent at the local store, but with bigger parties I’d guess the last big box store is a more viable option and a chance to save money? How bout those that set camp up 40+ miles from the nearest highway? They aren’t spending much locally. I just have a hard time believing that every diy hunter is spending their entire budget in small towns, when those prices tend to be higher than cities that have the big box stores. If the diy hunters stay in town and return to their hotel each night it’s a different story.

 

[Eric Albus]

@Eric Albus ....big time respect for that mea culpa. One very random thought, perhaps more for MOGA.....what if the BMA program could be enhanced to allow an outfitted lease to be added on relatively short notice?....say for instance, an outfitter commits to a lease and there's not enough NR lottery winners for the outfitter to pay the bills. What if resident hunters were permitted to hunt that lease with heavy, individualized restrictions, like say cow only harvesting, # of hunters/day restrictions, and only available on certain dates (perhaps after the outfitter has served his/her NR clients). I get the BMA compensation would have to be well above average, but if the math worked it might mitigate some of the outfitting risk by providing an additional avenue towards some much needed revenue.

had not thought of that but should be filleted, cooked and digested. very provocative thinking!

 

[SAJ-99]

Under mattresses too.

But to Eric's point, that money spent on outfitters does circulate in the local & regional economy. Trucks, food, etc all come into play as do wages & increased traffic. I think we need to be honest about that and recognize the value that outfitters have to MT's overall economy through diversification of revenue rather than placing the majority of your eggs in one basket like some states. We also need to be honest about what that impact actually is, what the hunting outfitters contribute versus fishing outfitters, and what DIY NR's bring to the table as well (Likely as much per person, but spread out differently among small businesses in key areas).

I posted this link to the study on another thread, but it might be useful here.
https://scholarworks.umt.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1376&context=itrr_pubs

My main problem with the study is that the data was collected through a dual survey- one sent to outfitters and one to NR visitors. The outfitter data probably should be more accurate because they have books for tax reasons. But the study sites some answers that seem way off, like an outfitter who answered # of clients at 9,999 (max allowed). Even a rafting operator running 10 boats each day would have trouble getting to that number, so questionable answer. A survey sent to a visitor is just going to contain guesses. We know surveys are inaccurate for a lot of reasons.

The table below is a summary at the front.
As expected, the Outfitter, Guide category is the main driver of the difference (about 60%). Point of question, are "tips" included in the numbers. I would guess for visitor responses it does, but for outfitter responses, probably not. Don't take offense if you are an outfitter, I just assume everyone cheats on their taxes. The average expenditure in the outfitter number is probably low by 50% of the "tip", or lets call it $40-50.

Some numbers in the table make sense, some don't. I think it comes back to those numbers for visitors that hire an outfitter are skewed by fishing and hunting as the purpose. Keep in mind the data is for all NR visitors to Montana, not just hunters. It includes rafters, fishers, and just general vacationers. Glacier and Yellowstone visitors are 40% of all visitors who hired an outfitter. One table says 2% of Outfitter visitors (17,400) were for hunting while table on page 18 says 4% of visitors hired an outfitter for hunting while 3% of all visitors. (again, I question the survey responses when data starts to deviate and not tie back to other numbers).

The only answer I have for that is economics, outfitted clients bring far more "bang for the buck", literally, than do unguided NR hunters. It is an indisputable fact. Even were I not involved with outfitting I would much rather see a NR have to leave maximum dollar. As a resident sportsman I see the NR as a "taker", you come to Montana and take something of "ours" home with you. If you are not making a large economic impact, why should we have you? I will not disparage that NR's who are not guided make an impact economically, but at 5-7 unguided, vs.1 guided, no comparison to the benefit for Montana.

As you can see above, everything in economics can be disputed. In this case, I don't dispute those that those hiring an outfitter spend more, but it mostly goes to the outfitter and shouldn't be used to drive legislative actions. That does not negate the conclusion of the importance of outfitting, but speaking in broad terms about positive economic impact is questionable at best in terms of the bill being discussed. We don't have data to compare NR hunters.
The paragraph below (page 5) is in the study about HB 161. Not sure how they concluded this but it was interesting in terms of this discussion.

Perhaps the first example of regulating guided activities was the I-161 initiative passed by the voters of Montana, 53.8 percent to 46.2 percent in 2010. I-161 was a citizen-initiated state statute to increase nonresident big game license fees and abolish outfitter-sponsored licenses. Until then, hunting outfitters were guaranteed a certain number of licenses for their clients. Clients paid almost double the price of a nonresident fee for that guarantee. Ultimately, Montana FWP lost revenue from nonresident licenses until 2017. The intent by many backers of I-161 was to open private lands to hunting by residents but it appears the opposite affect happened.

 

[timmy]

Wildlife management shouldn’t be driven by revenue. That goes for outfitters and DIY hunters.

 

[huntin24/7]

I agree with your points Craig- but I guess I have a hard time believing all diy hunters do this. For example, those that bring in a wall tent camp for ten days and stay there with their handful of hunting partners. I’d venture to say some is spent at the local store, but with bigger parties I’d guess the last big box store is a more viable option and a chance to save money? How bout those that set camp up 40+ miles from the nearest highway? They aren’t spending much locally. I just have a hard time believing that every diy hunter is spending their entire budget in small towns, when those prices tend to be higher than cities that have the big box stores. If the diy hunters stay in town and return to their hotel each night it’s a different story.

You make a valid point about this, and I think we all understand that money paid to the outfitter, at least to some degree, is spent locally or in state. I think the issue is, speaking for myself, that a lot of outfitters have the attitude that they’re bringing in these huge sums of money into the state and the diy guys contribute insignificant crumbs. I don’t want to discount outfitters economic impacts to the state, but the diy contributions are also significant.

 

[Eric Albus]

Our bars in eastern Montana absolutely bank on the non resident hunters. Just drive down Main Street middle of November and look at the out of state plates. They aren’t here for our beautiful views

If 143 were to pass there would be the same number of NR DIY guys as there has been the last 20 yrs, @ 39% going to the outfitters. If 143 does not pass then there will be more DIY NR on the landscape.

Couple things. I wouldn’t doubt some of these outfitters do plenty of shopping at Costco, Walmart or Amazon as well. I have no idea if big and Eric do this and really none of my business.
I have been on a couple hunts where a guide was required. Cases of candy bars, mountain house and power bars. They we’re certainly not from the local store. As I mentioned, nothing wrong with this, just an honest discussion.
I am guessing many of DIY folks are sitting down to multiple pizza meals at Eugene’s, hitting the drive thru and getting the #6 supersized, hitting the local DQ for the famous Blizzard, topping of the gas tank every morning while grabbing a coffee, 32oz Mountain Dew and a bag of powdered donuts.
I believe DIY hunters do help support small Montana communities and those $$$ are spread around.
Apologize if grammar/spelling is crap, I don’t type well on a phone.
Carry on.

My money gets spent at Saco Pay-n-Save and Reynolds in Glasgow. Fuel at Ezzie's and most everything we can buy local we buy local.

Lease checks pay for pickups/tractors/swathers/parts/car for wife, and so on. We stop at Quick and Tastee for malts, on the way home it's Stoughies Bar in beautiful downtown Hinsdale for beer and burgers.

 

[Tomahawk]

If 143 were to pass there would be the same number of NR DIY guys as there has been the last 20 yrs, @ 39% going to the outfitters. If 143 does not pass then there will be more DIY NR on the landscape.

So like this? Seems unlikely...

 

[Schaaf]

I am guessing many of DIY folks are sitting down to multiple pizza meals at Eugene’s, hitting the drive thru and getting the #6 supersized, hitting the local DQ for the famous Blizzard, topping of the gas tank every morning while grabbing a coffee, 32oz Mountain Dew and a bag of powdered donuts.

Ouch, Why not just tag me next time?

 

[TheJason]

Wildlife management shouldn’t be driven by revenue. That goes for outfitters and DIY hunters.

This.

 

[BuzzH]

If 143 were to pass there would be the same number of NR DIY guys as there has been the last 20 yrs, @ 39% going to the outfitters. If 143 does not pass then there will be more DIY NR on the landscape.

My money gets spent at Saco Pay-n-Save and Reynolds in Glasgow. Fuel at Ezzie's and most everything we can buy local we buy local.

Lease checks pay for pickups/tractors/swathers/parts/car for wife, and so on. We stop at Quick and Tastee for malts, on the way home it's Stoughies Bar in beautiful downtown Hinsdale for beer and burgers.

Guess what, NR and R DIY hunters stop at the same places....some even cut lease checks too.

Nobody owes outfitters a living off the States Wildlife assets. Outfitters don't even provide a red cent to the Montana FWP for management. Sportsman's dollars stock the shelves with Wildlife, outfitters take from those shelves we stock and forget to stop at the cash register on the way out.

A good start to further your argument would be start paying into the wildlife you take...and before you say it, its your CLIENTS that are paying license fee's not outfitters.