Non-resident outfitter license (MT) Bill is up for hearing 2/2/2021 (SB 143)

[huntin24/7]

I keep seeing it being mentioned how much more money an outfitted non res hunter brings into the state vs. a diy hunter. When you discount the money the client pays his outfitter, I bet the diy guy spends as much or more and it’s unquestionably more distributed throughout different businesses in these small MT towns.

 

[MNElkNut]

The point that concerns me and is often overlooked is what the trend is for the future. I have seen many times the proponents of this bill say the 39% is only what the outfitters currently get, so it has no effect. But that is disingenuous. When one looks a the trend of NR applications, it will be harder and harder to get a license. So the outfitters want the DIYers to shoulder all of that point creep with their clients being immune to any sharing whatsoever. The guided clients always get their licenses and the DIYers get to fight over the scraps. As time goes on, the DIY odds get worse and worse (assuming increasing demand), but the outfitted clients always get theirs. Just plain not fair and against the North American Model of Wildlife Conservation. If the current trend continues, it won't be long before it takes 3, 4 or even 5 years to draw a license as a DIYer if this bill passes. Ask yourself if it is fair that a DIYer gets to go every 4 years but the guided client gets to go every year.

 

[golfer]

I keep seeing it being mentioned how much more money an outfitted non res hunter brings into the state vs. a diy hunter. When you discount the money the client pays his outfitter, I bet the diy guy spends as much or more and it’s unquestionably more distributed throughout different businesses in these small MT towns.

I’m divided on this. Everyone wants to pinch pennies. How many diy guys stop at the last Walmart, sams club or Costco they have access too before their destination? That money isn’t spent in the community it’s going to some billionaires bank role. I’d say that the local outfitters for example Eric on the the hi-line or Rod down in the Jordan area spend more of the money the make locally at the local grocery stores, tire shops, gas, station, etc than spending out of community. Not to mention this money goes also toward insurance guide’s paychecks, camp cook wages as well. Yes there are some outfitters who may be based out of state but I don’t buy it that the diy guy spends more if they have set a camp up in the mountains.

 

[lastlight]

I think if a bill was introduced to cut the general season two weeks shorter or end the season for mule deer by Nov.5 the MT hunters on this forum would be in full support.

Not me, I like having one western state to hunt deer late November in without waiting a decade. If the deer herd was struggling I would change my mind. Montana is a deer factory, if you want a mature buck either hunt harder or go to another neighboring state. Ill be back in November on the combo tag again and looking forward to hunting both elk and deer. I will only shoot a mature muley buck or whitetail, its doable.

 

[Beignet]

Did it ever occur to you to tell your clients, "Hey man, if you don't have any preference points there's a good chance you may not draw this tag this year. You can take a chance but I'm going to overbook to cover myself, you may want to wait until next year when your odds will virtually guarantee the tag"

I had a similar conversation with an outfitter in another state a few years back. He essentially told me “it’s going to take about X points for an NR mule deer draw in this unit. Start building them up and get in touch in a few years.”

I didn’t get the instant gratification I might have liked, but I know I’ll have a memorable hunt to look forward to in a few years. I’m sure that outfit has a full schedule of bookings in the interim from others who’ve done their advanced planning.

 

[Wind Gypsy]

As a resident sportsman I see the NR as a "taker", you come to Montana and take something of "ours" home with you. If you are not making a large economic impact, why should we have you?

The wildlife belongs to the state of MT but it damn sure doesn't exist soley from the funding and advocacy of Montanans. If it weren't for non-resident advocates and funding I have a feeling the average resident hunter of MT would be in a much worse place than they are today.

It seems you are advocating that you should be the only "takers".

 

[Wind Gypsy]

The difference in this and outfitting is If/when you find someone wanting to build a house you don’t make them purchase a lottery ticket to see if they get to use your services. When they don’t draw you ask them “maybe next year”? Most will look at another state to build their house in.

For general tags, it's not a lottery. Preference points are predictable.

For outfitters relying on permit draws, I can see it becoming a legitimate hardship as potential clients only get a chance to put their name in the lottery once every 2 or 3 years.

 

[Ben Lamb]

The “guaranteed” license was the start of the shaking out of the unsuccessful outfitter. In spite of all the rhetoric from the opposition of a “guaranteed living” “guaranteed clientele” more outfitters went out of business during its tenure, and in the aftermath of 161 with a basically unlimited license available to outfitters more went out of business. Approx 500 outfitters before OSL to about 380 today(hunting outfitter).

What's the current # of guides operating under the reduced # of outfitters?

A lot of businesses went under during the Great Recession, which extended into 2010 and a bit beyond. If your industry lost people because of it, well, welcome to the free market.

But now I'm confused, if the current system favors outfitters, why change to a welfare model? Can't you guys just bootstrap your way to success like the rest of us small business owners?

 

[WIbiggame]

When one looks a the trend of NR applications, it will be harder and harder to get a license.

I did the math on this exact idea a few pages ago and you are 100% correct.

Edit: Just re ran the math. Now this is just for the Elk Combo, I didn't take into account the big game combo which includes the elk.

1) NR Applications are up 66% the last 4 years.

2) The same 4 year average for successful applications is 3634.

3) Outfitted Clients get 39% of that 3634 comes to 1417 tags leaving 2217 for the others.

4) if the trend continues in the NR apps in 2024, 9467 NR will apply for the Elk Combo. Take 39% off that as they will be with outfitters you have 5775 people applying for 2217 tags.

5) Draw odds go from 72.9% in 2020 for NR to 38.2% in 4 years. All while outfitted clients maintain a 100% draw.

 

[targetpanic]

I keep seeing it being mentioned how much more money an outfitted non res hunter brings into the state vs. a diy hunter. When you discount the money the client pays his outfitter, I bet the diy guy spends as much or more and it’s unquestionably more distributed throughout different businesses in these small MT towns.

I agree 100%. I believe the MOGA number is very misleading.
A group of 3 of us have made 2 trips to MT to DIY deer. We spent an average of $1500 each in the state per trip (not including flights and licenses/tags), most of which was in the local community. Rental truck, Hotel, Food, going out to eat a few nights, gas etc.

Had we gone with an outfitter we would have spent NONE or barely any of those dollars seeing many offer airport pickup, food and lodging included. Sure the outfitter has to purchase gas and food to cook for the entire camp...but they have that down to a science and go to big chains to buy in bulk etc.

Some say but the outfitter is employing a cook, guides etc...well the hotel is employing cleaning staff, the bars are employing bartenders and the restaurants are employing waitresses and cooks too.

I also cannot comprehend how they keep referring to a PREFERENCE POINT SYSTEM as a lottery. Do your research, talk to an outfitter if you choose, plan your hunt. It should be fairly simple for an outfitter to explain the preference point system for NR Combo licenses to potential clients.

 

[MNElkNut]

I did the math on this exact idea a few pages ago and you are 100% correct.

Edit: Just re ran the math. Now this is just for the Elk Combo, I didn't take into account the big game combo which includes the elk.

1) NR Applications are up 66% the last 4 years.

2) The same 4 year average for successful applications is 3634.

3) Outfitted Clients get 39% of that 3634 comes to 1417 tags leaving 2217 for the others.

4) if the trend continues in the NR apps in 2024, 9467 NR will apply for the Elk Combo. Take 39% off that as they will be with outfitters you have 5775 people applying for 2217 tags.

5) Draw odds go from 72.9% in 2020 for NR to 38.2% in 4 years. All while outfitted clients maintain a 100% draw.

I would love for one of the proponents of this bill address #5 above. Why haven't the proponents acknowledged this?

 

[ShootsManyBullets]

How much money do we think the guided hunter is spending at the bareback saloon type establishments across the state? DIY guys are funding the college education of aspiring nurses at a much higher rate. Trust the science people!

Seriously, the argument that the guided hunter brings more to the economy is laughable. The only extra cash they spend is on the outfitters. Maybe a few are buying jet fuel so there's that. I do appreciate that Eric posts his point of view on here and is generally professional even though I generally disagree with him.

 

[BourbonSnowCone]

What's the current # of guides operating under the reduced # of outfitters?

A lot of businesses went under during the Great Recession, which extended into 2010 and a bit beyond. If your industry lost people because of it, well, welcome to the free market.

But now I'm confused, if the current system favors outfitters, why change to a welfare model? Can't you guys just bootstrap your way to success like the rest of us small business owners?

These threads are all sides continuing to present the same arguments and no one changes their mind.

 

[Eric Albus]

How much money do we think the guided hunter is spending at the bareback saloon type establishments across the state? DIY guys are funding the college education of aspiring nurses at a much higher rate. Trust the science people!

Seriously, the argument that the guided hunter brings more to the economy is laughable. The only extra cash they spend is on the outfitters. Maybe a few are buying jet fuel so there's that. I do appreciate that Eric posts his point of view on here and is generally professional even though I generally disagree with him.

The extra cash spent on "the outfitters" is kept in coffee cans buried in each and every outfitters backyard.

 

[Eric Albus]

These threads are all sides continuing to present the same arguments and no one changes their mind.

the definition of insanity, keep doing same thing over and over, expecting a different result

 

[Eric Albus]

What's the current # of guides operating under the reduced # of outfitters?

A lot of businesses went under during the Great Recession, which extended into 2010 and a bit beyond. If your industry lost people because of it, well, welcome to the free market.

But now I'm confused, if the current system favors outfitters, why change to a welfare model? Can't you guys just bootstrap your way to success like the rest of us small business owners?

1. Nobody has the number of hunting guides, a guide is a guide. BoO has no way to differentiate hunting guide vs. fishing guide. I would figure 380 active outfitters averaging 2-6 guides, so lets go with high side and say 5, 1900 and my best guess is that number would be high.

2. This is way business works.

3. The current system was working for most of us, until this year. A lot of guys don't have enough people with pref. pts. to draw, so there will be some outfitters looking at a different way to make a living. Such us life, some make it some don't.

 

[Ben Lamb]

3. The current system was working for most of us, until this year. A lot of guys don't have enough people with pref. pts. to draw, so there will be some outfitters looking at a different way to make a living. Such us life, some make it some don't.

Thanks for being patient with us, as we learn about your side, Eric. I know folks say this, but it's an honest reflection of the respect you generate by being here.

On #3, I can say the same thing about consultants. It's feast or famine a lot of the time, and good consultants build a stable base of clients based on their outcomes & the work done. I think the basic difference of opinion here is that some of us don't see the need to prop up industry, while others do.

 

[Ben Lamb]

The extra cash spent on "the outfitters" is kept in coffee cans buried in each and every outfitters backyard.

Under mattresses too.

But to Eric's point, that money spent on outfitters does circulate in the local & regional economy. Trucks, food, etc all come into play as do wages & increased traffic. I think we need to be honest about that and recognize the value that outfitters have to MT's overall economy through diversification of revenue rather than placing the majority of your eggs in one basket like some states. We also need to be honest about what that impact actually is, what the hunting outfitters contribute versus fishing outfitters, and what DIY NR's bring to the table as well (Likely as much per person, but spread out differently among small businesses in key areas).

 

[brocksw]

These threads are all sides continuing to present the same arguments and no one changes their mind.

In fairness, it's the nature of the beast. New people chime in and some don't read all 76 pages to see what's been discussed and what hasn't. Welcome to the internet.

 

[BourbonSnowCone]

the definition of insanity, keep doing same thing over and over, expecting a different result

Sounds like my yearly excursions onto Forest Service looking for elk during general season.