Non-resident outfitter license (MT) Bill is up for hearing 2/2/2021 (SB 143)

[BuzzH]

This is what needs to happen. It is what I have said for years. "If the accessible lands looked like the places I hunt we would not even be having a conversation about this". Nobody would care who leased what if it all held the same quality. Nobody but a complete moron would lease private land if the public held the same quality. Hunting BLM, FS, CMR is CHEAP compared to hunting private land. And yes, outfitters do pay BLM, FS, CMR to hunt, further subsidizing the R hunter, but it's cheap compared to private.

What needs to happen is more organizations like APR need to be buying private property. They're great, they place a high value on wildlife on their property, allow public access, increase access to surrounding public lands, allow public hunting and don't allow outfitting. They invest in Montana, their employees live in Montana and support the local economies. They also help educate the public on how important large tracts of habitat matter. The upside to APR and groups like them, there is no downside.

Which reminds me, I need to send them another donation.

 

[Eric Albus]

What needs to happen is more organizations like APR need to be buying private property. They're great, they place a high value on wildlife on their property, allow public access, increase access to surrounding public lands, allow public hunting and don't allow outfitting. They invest in Montana, their employees live in Montana and support the local economies. They also help educate the public on how important large tracts of habitat matter. The upside to APR and groups like them, there is no downside.

Which reminds me, I need to send them another donation.

I actually feel sorry for you. Your existence is so pathetic that you attempt to rouse mine or Rod's ire with a post like this? Maybe post some pics of yourself again and give the self esteem a boost. I've had several guys on here message me to torture you into doing just that.

 

[BuzzH]

I actually feel sorry for you. Your existence is so pathetic that you attempt to rouse mine or Rod's ire with a post like this? Maybe post some pics of yourself again and give the self esteem a boost. I've had several guys on here message me to torture you into doing just that.

Every time I send a check to APR, I feel good about it...helping to fund something worthwhile.

I know it would appear a strange concept for someone like yourself and Rod who are always on the take.

When I recreate on APR property, it reminds me of what Montana used to be...and still should/needs to be.

Oh, and just for you...because you begged, not shot on a Montana lease last fall or with a Montana outfitter. You can use your imagination to guess where and on who's property though in Montana. Not my bull, but I never mind helping out my Dad, who turned 75 last July.

 

[Mtnhunter1]

Outfitting on private land is going to pretty much done and over with in the next 10-15 years, as ranchers are aging out and selling to NR absentee owners. This has been a topic of discussion amongst us for a few years.

The result of catering to folks that have way more money then time!

 

[antlerradar]

That’s what made it so funny

Ok, I'm going to have to google Greek adjective.

 

[Gerald Martin]

Ok, I'm going to have to google Greek adjective.

Just don’t Google any Greek adjectives that Greenhorn references. - My PSA for Monday 5/17/21.

 

[Hunting Wife]

Outfitting on private land is going to pretty much done and over with in the next 10-15 years, as ranchers are aging out and selling to NR absentee owners. This has been a topic of discussion amongst us for a few years.

Outfitters are paying fees to FS, BLM, CMR, State for the privilege of use of these lands. Outfitters are also required to have and hold conservation license in Montana. Sportsmen pay nothing to access BLM, CMR, FS.

So what I’m hearing is that these set aside NR licenses, which it was argued extensively by the outfitters would alleviate crowding in public land because they all outfit on private, are going to predominantly be hunting on public in the not-too-distant future. And if this has indeed been a topic “amongst us for a few years”, the argument of alleviated crowding appears to have been a bald-faced lie.

So what exactly was the benefit of this welfare scheme for public land resident hunters again?

 

[antlerradar]

So what I’m hearing is that these set aside NR licenses, which it was argued extensively by the outfitters would alleviate crowding in public land because they all outfit on private, are going to predominantly be hunting on public in the not-too-distant future. And if this has indeed been a topic “amongst us for a few years”, the argument of alleviated crowding appears to have been a bald-faced lie.

So what exactly was the benefit of this welfare scheme for public land resident hunters again?

I think there is plenty of truth in what Eric sees in the future. As more and more land sells to out of state owners the hunters that used to hunt there are going to be displaced to public. In terms of the number of hunters on a ranch. Outfitters > than hunt clubs >owners that close down hunting. Every time a ranch movers from the outfitted a hunt club or an anti hunting owner more hunters will be squished on to public land. I have seen this happen to several ranches.

 

[antlerradar]

Just don’t Google any Greek adjectives that Greenhorn references. - My PSA for Monday 5/17/21.

You are scaring me. I will wait until just before I take my evening shower.

 

[antlerradar]

You probably make more than a lot of economists I know. They like to argue in the theoretical and never have to deal with the consequences, kind of like internet chat boards.

Ag markets are not perfectly competitive. The one thing you left out is in perfect competition there are also numerous buyers who are unable to control the market price. That isn’t true in ag. Especially cattle and pigs where there are just a few processors and the producers are price takers. In most grains Cargill and ADM, in barley the beer makers, etc. Capitalism and perfect competition don’t go together well. Also, I am not sure we have the same definition of “economic profit”. Farmers and rancher make a profit, even if it were a perfect competition. Just not “excess” profit. The only way to do that is to modify your product -go organic, grass fed, raise bison, etc- to differentiate it from norm.

@Eric Albus, Customer don’t necessarily get the benefit from subsidies in cheaper product, but rather more stable prices. surprised no one has made a point that resident tag prices could be viewed as being subsidized by NR prices.

This is a good point. In todays economy the real beneficiaries of ag subsidies are the big multi national company's like Cargill and Tyson. Know wonder politicians like them so much.

 

[BlazerBeam]

It just pisses me off to no end that ANYBODY makes money off of hunting. The outfitter making money off of hunting erks me just as much as the Brian Call, Randy Newberg, Ryan Lampers, HUSHIN bros, and a million other self proclaimed experts and self absorbed influencers. You want to kill an elk? Get off your ass and learn the country and habits of elk. And once you do, don't charge other people a subscription/service or seek sponsors to pay you to share that "expertise" with those who can't or won't do it themselves. You're really only being an entertainer who wants to hunt and talk about hunting for a living. And what you're doing is recruiting more hunting pressure to public lands and more knot-heads that have ruined private land owners from letting us hunt on their property. There is a property close to my house that I used to be able to hunt freely without paying or asking. That land owner sold to a larger ranch and that new owner will no longer allow me to hunt that section. He is leasing it to an outfitter though. I told him that I would pay him a competitive rate to still be able to hunt there. His response? "Nah, I have found that outfitters treat my land better than the guy going on his own." So that sucks. I essentially eliminated the money factor for him and he still chose the outfitter. The DIY boner ruined it for that section at least.

And as a side note, before someone finds some way to say something about how NR tag allocation has been a fixed number for years, I would kindly say that the number of resident tags have slowly been increasing. SO MANY people are moving to MT who have been NR hunters before. They are moving here, in large part, to be able to hunt as a resident. Then Randy or someone else will talk about how its RESIDENTS who are responsible for the overcrowding of trailheads and public lands and that NR's can't be responsible for that because their number of tags is fixed. Where to you think the increasing number of resident hunters is coming from? What a way to continue your justification for selling hunting to the NR DIY guy! (who has a high likelihood of being a resident DIY guy at some point in the future).

Outfitters are a threat to the influencer's business. The influencer likes to preach and sell a DIY hunt (subscribe, like and share! sign up for the GoHunt insider! Blah blah blah) and Outfitters threaten that. Outfitters suck too though, because they indirectly make their money off of the MT resident's public resource. I know they have said that they are selling a service, but what is that service? To guide a client to the eventual harvest of a big game animal. If all that they ever provided was great food and a scenic ride on a horse or only looking at animals through optics, then they would go out of business pretty quick. You gain more business by ensuring that clients fill tags. No one wants to spend thousands with someone who is not going to give them high odds of getting it done. So yes, outfitter, you have also played a role in perverting hunting and turning it into an industry.

 

[Hunting Wife]

It just pisses me off to no end that ANYBODY makes money off of hunting. The outfitter making money off of hunting erks me just as much as the Brian Call, Randy Newberg, Ryan Lampers, HUSHIN bros, and a million other self proclaimed experts and self absorbed influencers. You want to kill an elk? Get off your ass and learn the country and habits of elk. And once you do, don't charge other people a subscription/service or seek sponsors to pay you to share that "expertise" with those who can't or won't do it themselves. You're really only being an entertainer who wants to hunt and talk about hunting for a living. And what you're doing is recruiting more hunting pressure to public lands and more knot-heads that have ruined private land owners from letting us hunt on their property. There is a property close to my house that I used to be able to hunt freely without paying or asking. That land owner sold to a larger ranch and that new owner will no longer allow me to hunt that section. He is leasing it to an outfitter though. I told him that I would pay him a competitive rate to still be able to hunt there. His response? "Nah, I have found that outfitters treat my land better than the guy going on his own." So that sucks. I essentially eliminated the money factor for him and he still chose the outfitter. The DIY boner ruined it for that section at least.

And as a side note, before someone finds some way to say something about how NR tag allocation has been a fixed number for years, I would kindly say that the number of resident tags have slowly been increasing. SO MANY people are moving to MT who have been NR hunters before. They are moving here, in large part, to be able to hunt as a resident. Then Randy or someone else will talk about how its RESIDENTS who are responsible for the overcrowding of trailheads and public lands and that NR's can't be responsible for that because their number of tags is fixed. Where to you think the increasing number of resident hunters is coming from? What a way to continue your justification for selling hunting to the NR DIY guy! (who has a high likelihood of being a resident DIY guy at some point in the future).

Outfitters are a threat to the influencer's business. The influencer likes to preach and sell a DIY hunt (subscribe, like and share! sign up for the GoHunt insider! Blah blah blah) and Outfitters threaten that. Outfitters suck too though, because they indirectly make their money off of the MT resident's public resource. I know they have said that they are selling a service, but what is that service? To guide a client to the eventual harvest of a big game animal. If all that they ever provided was great food and a scenic ride on a horse or only looking at animals through optics, then they would go out of business pretty quick. You gain more business by ensuring that clients fill tags. No one wants to spend thousands with someone who is not going to give them high odds of getting it done. So yes, outfitter, you have also played a role in perverting hunting and turning it into an industry.

There’s a wanna-be influencer in Wyoming that seems right up your alley.

 

[BlazerBeam]

There’s a wanna-be influencer in Wyoming that seems right up your alley.

Is hunting being a money making machine ok with you?
Its funny how many people gripe about certain avenues and people to whom money is directed as it pertains to hunting, but other people who are monetary beneficiaries of the hunting industry they are completely ok with.

 

[Hunting Wife]

Is hunting being a money making machine ok with you?
Its funny how many people gripe about certain avenues and people to whom money is directed as it pertains to hunting, but other people who are monetary beneficiaries of the hunting industry they are completely ok with.

Also funny how many people get on hunting media to gripe about hunting media.

I do not believe public resources and access to them should be exclusive to any particular group. If that means we have to learn to share, well, we should have learned that in preschool. I do have a problem with my public resource being a subsidy for one sector of business at the expense of others, and access to said resource being determined solely by one’s ability to pay more. I do not have a problem with outfitters making a living off of their services in a free market scenario where clients purchase that service solely based on their assessment of the value of said service, but that’s not where we’re at now, are we?

And if people are upset with the current trend of diminishing access to resident opportunities, how about putting that energy you’re wasting on the keyboard griping about media towards improving habitat quantity, quality, and finding ways to achieve more animals on the landscape instead of worrying about how many of the scraps you get.

 

[Eric Albus]

Every time I send a check to APR, I feel good about it...helping to fund something worthwhile.

I know it would appear a strange concept for someone like yourself and Rod who are always on the take.

When I recreate on APR property, it reminds me of what Montana used to be...and still should/needs to be.

Oh, and just for you...because you begged, not shot on a Montana lease last fall or with a Montana outfitter. You can use your imagination to guess where and on who's property though in Montana. Not my bull, but I never mind helping out my Dad, who turned 75 last July.

Lol didn’t take much.
Enjoy hunting the APR as it won’t last long.
I grew up hunting public land. I am a proponent of public lands and hunting said lands.

 

[Eric Albus]

So what I’m hearing is that these set aside NR licenses, which it was argued extensively by the outfitters would alleviate crowding in public land because they all outfit on private, are going to predominantly be hunting on public in the not-too-distant future. And if this has indeed been a topic “amongst us for a few years”, the argument of alleviated crowding appears to have been a bald-faced lie.

So what exactly was the benefit of this welfare scheme for public land resident hunters again?

You really don’t understand. No, when we are done outfitting lands being sold we are not moving to public land. The permits allocated to hunt public are set and they aren’t giving more out.
I probably should not be as aggravated by this as I am, but before making statements like that do some research or at least ask someone before attacking me.

 

[BlazerBeam]

Also funny how many people get on hunting media to gripe about hunting media.

I do not believe public resources and access to them should be exclusive to any particular group. If that means we have to learn to share, well, we should have learned that in preschool. I do have a problem with my public resource being a subsidy for one sector of business at the expense of others, and access to said resource being determined solely by one’s ability to pay more. I do not have a problem with outfitters making a living off of their services in a free market scenario where clients purchase that service solely based on their assessment of the value of said service, but that’s not where we’re at now, are we?

And if people are upset with the current trend of diminishing access to resident opportunities, how about putting that energy you’re wasting on the keyboard griping about media towards improving habitat quantity, quality, and finding ways to achieve more animals on the landscape instead of worrying about how many of the scraps you get.

I put my energy into working in other sectors of the economy to provide for my family. I hunt for personal satisfaction and to feed my family. I don't have the time or energy to devote to "conservation or DIY advocacy" or whatever you call it. But I do have the time and energy to bitch about youtubers and people who sell hunting. Even donating to organizations that claim that the bulk of their work is for habitat, etc. are still in it to make a dollar. I am telling you that a movement against hunting as an "industry" and the involvement of money in it for personal gain is what I believe will help to solve some of these problems.

people keep preaching this concept of "make a bigger pie", but the rate at which that happens or is happening is 5 times slower than the rate at which hunters are being recruited and the rate that people are being sold the ability to shoot further, know country, and understand animal behavior. So what will have to end up giving in is hunting opportunity. Stop the money part of hunting and maybe you can build your bigger pie at a faster rate than the pressure being applied to animals.

 

[BuzzH]

Enjoy hunting the APR as it won’t last long.

Prove it...

 

[mtmiller]

Enjoy hunting the APR as it won’t last long.

I couldn't hunt it before APR, but I can now.

I keep hearing that it won't last long but no basis given by anyone, just the usual hot air. Yet here we are, still allowed access to recreate and hunt on APR lands.

If APR won't let me on in the future, that is their right as a landowner. Same as any other private landowner in south Phillips/Valley.

Shitty argument.

 

[BuzzH]

I couldn't hunt it before APR, but I can now.

I keep hearing that it won't last long but no basis given by anyone, just the usual hot air. Yet here we are, still allowed access to recreate and hunt on APR lands.

If APR won't let me on in the future, that is their right as a landowner. Same as any other private landowner in south Phillips/Valley.

Shitty argument.

Agreed...I'll gamble on APR and roll the dice.

Their track record is pretty darn stellar on access and allowing hunting.