Non resident Landowner incentive.

[cgasner1]

Great point. Argue over a typo. God help your clients if you are a lawyer hahahahah.

Let me see if i get your position. The 454 program sucks. But its no problem that 635 expands and abuses it. Lmfao

He isn’t a lawyer but the last one he got into an argument with on here they took it to the pm. Big world little trade carnage is legit and knows a thing or two maybe worth having a conversation

 

[Forkyfinder]

He isn’t a lawyer but the last one he got into an argument with on here they took it to the pm. Big world little trade carnage is legit and knows a thing or two maybe worth having a conversation

Perhaps.

Id rather the whole conversation be here. Make me an idiot and show me all the benefits we got - i think itd be a really important and relevant conversation. Surely the "proof" of all the goods out there. And if not - maybe some folks could support the repeal. So far - ive not seen much for benefits of it. And thats relevant for helena and the rest of the world to see. Prove me wrong.

Or call me stupid cause i cant prove something thats incentive based. Or call me ignorant cause i typed a number wrong. I guess thats a real convincing argument.

 

[cgasner1]

Perhaps.

Id rather the whole conversation be here. Make me an idiot and show me all the benefits we got - i think itd be a really important and relevant conversation. Surely the "proof" of all the goods out there. And if not - maybe some folks could support the repeal. So far - ive not seen much for benefits of it. And thats relevant for helena and the rest of the world to see. Prove me wrong.

Or call me stupid cause i cant prove something thats incentive based. Or call me ignorant cause i typed a number wrong. I guess thats a real convincing argument.

Sometime none of us wanna see the forest thru the trees. I haven’t been paying much attention to this but it looks like you showed up looking for a fight and not a discussion

 

[Gerald Martin]

At this point is the conversation about 454 or 635? Or both or what? I can’t track which argument is against what anymore.

I think I’ve been fairly clear about why I support 635. For the record, I don’t like the 454 agreements and haven’t supported them, nor do I think I would support them in current form. I think the 454 agreements were intended to be a quid pro quo situation and I don’t think the public is receiving an equal share in the exchange.

As I understand it, the relevant piece of legislation being considered is 635. We can agree to disagree about its merits but it’s currently law. Since the current debate is about whether or not to repeal it, shouldn’t the burden of logic be on why we should repeal it? Otherwise, it’s just a continuation of “I like it. I hate it.” opinion.
I’ve stated my opinion of it. It’s my opinion. I don’t feel the need to further explain or justify why my opinion has merit. We’re coming at this issue from a different point of perspective.

It is my opinion that cooperative agreements have yielded tangible results as an outcome of shifts in attitudes and cooperation. That might not be able to be measurable in a way that convinces someone of a different opinion that my opinion is the correct one. It is however, my current opinion based on personal experience and is part of what informs my support for 635.

 

[Forkyfinder]

Looking at 454 agreements, and 635, seperately is a logical fallacy. If you feel that 454 agreements are abused - and 635 will lead to more of it - you cant consider them independently - just like you consider existing law when passing new. Dont you consider the lumber you frame when youre buying screws, @Gerald Martin ? By the way - outside of the revenue claim - you mentioned i had compelling points. Can you refute them?

Ive made the arguments for repealing it - they arent a lot different than why it shouldnt have passed. Except that now we have documentation to count the dividends of our hope. Heres it summarized:

1. Incentivizes the seizure of working ranches for recreational play grounds.
2. Expands the (ab)use of the 454 program. Recall - this used to be a compelling argument for 635.
3. Provides no public benefit - the only access granted has been a ripoff. And this didnt increase a single unit objective number.
4. Reduces the quantity of high value LE permits (for NR, but that should matter to more of you given they foot the bill for the dept).


Looking forward to hearing the compelling reasons we shouldnt repeal it.

 

[bigsky2]

3. Provides no public benefit - the only access granted has been a ripoff. And this didnt increase a single unit objective number.

I’m not trying to get into this argument, but what do you mean in reference to unit objectives? I don’t remember that ever being a part of the conversation around the 454’s or 635, but I certainly could be wrong.

 

[Gerald Martin]

1. Incentivizes the seizure of working ranches for recreational playgrounds.

Seizure? For real? Please tell me this is hyperbole and not your actual belief.

Who gets to decide what are the appropriate reasons for property sales?

 

[Forkyfinder]

Seizure? For real? Please tell me this is hyperbole and not your actual belief.

Who gets to decide what are the appropriate reasons for property sales?

I should have said that it provides plenty of incentive for working ranches to become recreational properties. That wouldnt be disputable and would have been language that couldnt be construed as misrepresenting.

So yeah - i do see what you are saying. The use of the word seizure is a bit hyperbolic. So you know - the reason i used it - practical market conditions of recreational ranches are forcing high estate taxes on adjacent working ranches that they'll never afford. And if they cant use a conservation easement to devalue the property - options are quite limited, unless youre rich. Hope you see what i am getting at.

Otherwise, id love to change your mind and help me push to get it repealed or further amended.

So far - the only really convincing thing ive heard - to get my mind changed - is that it isnt a big deal because its not used much. To that id say its already getting used 2x as much as the hunt roster and its barely 1 legislative session old.

 

[Forkyfinder]

I’m not trying to get into this argument, but what do you mean in reference to unit objectives? I don’t remember that ever being a part of the conversation around the 454’s or 635, but I certainly could be wrong.

It wasnt.

I guess what im getting at is if X "public resource" is provided to the land owner - for their contribution to it - shouldnt we be asking for more elk tolerance (increased objective numbers) - especially if that elk lives a lot on public land.

 

[Gerald Martin]

I should have said that it provides plenty of incentive for working ranches to become recreational properties. That wouldnt be disputable and would have been language that couldnt be construed as misrepresenting.

So yeah - i do see what you are saying. The use of the word seizure is a bit hyperbolic. So you know - the reason i used it - practical market conditions of recreational ranches are forcing high estate taxes on adjacent working ranches that they'll never afford. And if they cant use a conservation easement to devalue the property - options are quite limited, unless youre rich. Hope you see what i am getting at.

Fair point. One thing to add to the conversation is that around here, subdivision and development are the biggest drivers of property tax increases. I would far rather large properties (even ones that I will never access) stay in large blocks for recreation than be developed for housing. (Even though my profession is construction.)

Maybe someone who knows how agricultural properties tax rates are fixed can weigh in with accurate information but I thought tax rates for agricultural properties were set by the anticipated ability of the land’s productivity rather than by the value of property around it like residential properties are assessed?

 

[Forkyfinder]

Fair point. One thing to add to the conversation is that around here, subdivision and development are the biggest drivers of property tax increases. I would far rather large properties (even ones that I will never access) stay in large blocks for recreation than be developed for housing. (Even though my profession is construction.)

Maybe someone who knows how agricultural properties tax rates are fixed can weigh in with accurate information but I thought tax rates for agricultural properties were set by the anticipated ability of the land’s productivity rather than by the value of property around it like residential properties are assessed?

You are correct about prop tax. That wont change - whether its moslty an elk hunters lottery wish or a real agriculture operation. The laws on the books make it pretty simple.... if you have 160 acres and do much ag business at all - you qualify for getting taxed on what you could produce not your properties value.

Im talking about the estate tax - when the ranch is passed on in lieu of being sold. Thats what those "conservation easements" really do - save someone from estate tax. As i understand - it can be really hard to prove recreational value for those.

P.s. another big driver of land getting subdivided there is a neat trick called "family transfer" but thats one i abused myself.