No Masks....Would you?
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SFC B
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The death total for the US difference between 2019 (NOT a high flu year) and 2020 is +-12%. That is in NO way proportional to the response and economic destruction. https://usafacts.org/articles/preli...deaths-in-2020-than-2019-coronavirus-age-flu/
D
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So that's not really the point.
Here's the point, say I have COVID, I'm young healthy etc. I don't even have symptoms. Say I go hang out with a buddy he's also young heathy etc. Nether of us are worried that we will get super sick.
But!
My buddy has a friend who is immunocompromised, that he hangs out with.
So If we all wear masks then the chances of me giving COVID to my buddy and then him giving it to his friend, whom it might be deadly for, are greatly reduced.
Further, if I reduce my chances of getting the virus through behavior modifications I reduce the likelihood that anyone in my social circle will have me as a disease vector.
Point being at no point in the last year have I ever thought, "Oh no I'm gonna die", but I have thought... "My buddy sees a lot of cancer patients on chemo, we should probably only hang out with masks on because I don't want to give him something that he then might give to a patient."
SFC B
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And yet a couple hundred thousand below the YEARLY loss to abortion or smoking.......seriously
shrapnel
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That is a long answer to a different question.
ChrisC
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I'm not taking it as beating up at all - I'm happy to hear your perspective. I'm certainly not going to sit here and suggest that I read every scholarly article that comes out regarding this, but the vast majority of what I've read, seen, etc. says things like they "can help" and are generally better than not wearing one (with exceptions, obviously), but most admit that there isn't sufficient data to claim anything definitively. My conclusion from that is I am better off, for now, wearing one when I'm among other people. If better science comes out that proves differently, I'll adjust accordingly. It sounds like you have seen information that contradicts what I've seen, which makes me think of that Netflix special recently that described how one person gets different search results than others based on a variety of factors. Anyway, I just don't think wearing a mask should come with the label "afraid" or "scared".
Masks could’ve made a difference.
They could’ve ramped up production of N95s and made sure that everybody had one.
Instead, they used them as a divisive virtue symbol, claiming that any mask of any material would stop the pandemic, while healthcare workers were missing work (my sister in law) and in some cases dying (her coworker)because they got sick after their hospital ran completely out of N95s.
This was 3-4 months ago, not a year ago. Completely unacceptable.
Instead of dedicating so much energy to hand wringing about the general population wearing useless cloth masks, perhaps we should have made more real masks that are proven to work and made sure they got into the hands of the people that needed them, and then into the hands of everybody else.
There would be many more alive Americans today if N95s had been used in place of what amounts to a sock with two twist ties on the end.
As for restaurants, I think they’re either dangerous or not dangerous and mask requirements don’t change that.
Wearing a mask from the door to the table is performative, if you’re going to take it off and talk, laugh eat and socialize in a poorly ventilator room with other tables of strangers for the next hour.
If I was worried about getting or was high risk for Covid, I would not go to a restaurant regardless of whether or not a person has to wear a mask to be seated or take a leak.
They could’ve ramped up production of N95s and made sure that everybody had one.
Instead, they used them as a divisive virtue symbol, claiming that any mask of any material would stop the pandemic, while healthcare workers were missing work (my sister in law) and in some cases dying (her coworker)because they got sick after their hospital ran completely out of N95s.
This was 3-4 months ago, not a year ago. Completely unacceptable.
Instead of dedicating so much energy to hand wringing about the general population wearing useless cloth masks, perhaps we should have made more real masks that are proven to work and made sure they got into the hands of the people that needed them, and then into the hands of everybody else.
There would be many more alive Americans today if N95s had been used in place of what amounts to a sock with two twist ties on the end.
As for restaurants, I think they’re either dangerous or not dangerous and mask requirements don’t change that.
Wearing a mask from the door to the table is performative, if you’re going to take it off and talk, laugh eat and socialize in a poorly ventilator room with other tables of strangers for the next hour.
If I was worried about getting or was high risk for Covid, I would not go to a restaurant regardless of whether or not a person has to wear a mask to be seated or take a leak.
DouglasR
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I would think the chemo doctor would be practicing extreme social distancing.
in that situation the mask actually doesn’t seem like enough protection.
ImBillT
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But you didn’t explain how wearing a mask was going to prevent you from giving your buddy a viral respiratory disease...which was his question.
I totally agree that the elderly and immunocompromised, as well as those that they have contact with should be extremely careful. I’m unfortunately not terribly sure of what can actually be done for them other than complete isolation or advancement of treatment options.
D
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Yeah exactly. *Don't actually have that friend, was attempting to be illustrative.
D
Deleted member 28227
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I assumed explaining covering your mouth was overly pedantic.
Dougfirtree
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Yeah, but that's the number after the whole world shut down, people stayed home, wore masks, etc. It's literally an unprecedented level of disease mitigation for almost the entire world. And we still may have been 12% above average. It's an apples to oranges comparison that doesn't really tell us much. Had we acted normally through this year, making an apples to apples comparison, we might well have had millions and millions more deaths.
I like freedom. I respect that we all have different opinions. But I'm going with what a majority of scientists and experts are telling us. (Like we all say when it's about bear hunts, etc).
DouglasR
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Would you rather get on an airplane with masks or go to casa bonita without masks?
D
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If someone doesn't think a 12% increase is a lot I doubt they will care if it's 40% or 60%... just saying.
WapitiBob
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I haven't seen or heard of a restaurant that required masks once at the table.
Over 81,000 drug overdose deaths occurred in the United States in the 12 months ending in May 2020, the highest number of overdose deaths ever recorded in a 12-month period, according to recent provisional data from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC).
Lots of different issues that were caused by the shutdown too. Who knows if more people would have died without the shutdowns. It doesn't really matter. The media by and large controls the narrative and forces what the world focuses on. Then they tell us the outcome. Without the media, I wonder if any of this last year plays out close to the same. Something to ponder.
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Dougfirtree
Well-known member
It's just so disheartening to me, that we're arguing about this. This should be the thing we don't have to argue about. When that virus comes around that has a 60% death rate, we are in trouble.
D
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This is probably what you are looking for then.
Still Confused About Masks? Here’s the Science Behind How Face Masks Prevent Coronavirus
We talked to UCSF epidemiologist George Rutherford, MD, and infectious disease specialist Peter Chin-Hong, MD, about the CDC’s reversal on mask-wearing, the current science on how masks work, and what to consider when choosing a mask.
If either person is wearing a mask risk is reduced, if both are it's even further reduced.
So to your original question, it doesn't, it works both ways.
ImBillT
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I skimmed a handful of older mask studies and newer ones. There have been studies on nursing staff at hospitals where some of them were required to wear masks at work and away from work and at the end of flu season, the mask group and maskless group did not have a significant difference in incidence of flu. There was an early 2020 study in Japan if I remember correctly, that showed that wearing a mask resulted in substantially less viral particles in the air, BUT A) there are were still viral particles being expelled into the air, and B) there is no evidence that it’s remotely possible for a person to maintain such perfection eternally. In my personal opinion, a season long study of medical personnel is more indicative of effectiveness than whether or not a mask could block a virus.
Imagine how you use a mask, and how you can get the virus. Pretend that your mask blocks 100% of virus particles from exiting, and you have the virus. The inside of your mask is swimming in virus particles. You get in your car, or home, and take your mask off. Now you have virus particles all over your hands. You breath in your home. Now there there are virus particles all over your clothes, all over everything in your home. You put your mask back on, now there are virus particles all over the outside of your mask. You get in your car, virus particles from your hands and clothes get all over your car. You go to the store, you get virus particles all over the cart, anything you brush up against, any item that you pick up and look at and put back down. What did wearing your mask really do? The same thing happens if you’re not sick, but someone in the store is. Viral particles are floating around in the air. They get all over your clothes, in your hair, on your gloves, on the outside of your mask. You go to your car, you get them all over your car, you get home, you get them all over your home, and then off comes the mask...which you will probably put back on...after the inside has been exposed to viral particles. There is a reason that Asian countries have not drastically reduced viral respiratory illness by wearing masks for decades. It’s because it is nearly impossible to do perfectly for extended periods.
The number one thing to look at without wasting any time on studies is that the CDC’s official stance on masks prior to May 2020 was that mask wearing was not useful at reducing viral respiratory illness. 101 years of studying masks to prevent influenza and the CDC said they don’t work. The number two thing to look at is Fauci. Multiple times on national television he said that they were essentially worthless, and then he did a complete reversal and decided that some underwear over your face would save the planet.
I don’t think that wearing a mask is likely to hurt you. If someone feels better wearing it, then by all means, they should wear it.
406dn
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You keep trying to drag abortion into this issue.
First it is legal.
No state in the union will issue a death certificate after an abortion. No death certificate is issued whenever there is a miscarriage. We will never get miscarriages anywhere close to zero. To end abortions, it is a far bigger intrusion into an individual's control of their own affairs than anything asked of anybody for this pandemic.
As to smoking, society sends many messages that discourage the practice. Most states have banned indoor smoking in public buildings. So it is inaccurate to think the deaths caused by smoking are not an area of concern.
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