Letthemgrow
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Could you help a brother out and send me the info on any 16D rifle tags for less than $10k?
Much appreciated.
New Mexico Privatization. Nuthin like it
- Thread starter abqbw
- Start date
Could you help a brother out and send me the info on any 16D rifle tags for less than $10k?
Much appreciated.
seeth07
Well-known member
They don't have much for growing populations in all of those states except perhaps Wyoming. And it isn't exactly huge growth based on %herd/year. Steady and maintainable populations yes.
NM is significantly growing its elk herd. Their plan and goal is getting elk populations up to the limit at which the habitat can support it. 110%+ herd increases annually which is extremely high. Utah in the 80s and 90s when it set out to grow its herd and did it very successfully at annual 108% rates. This is able to happen because the main stakeholder that objects to growing elk herds is the rancher and they have found a way to make them happy.
Montana's elk herd isn't growing and get this - they are on the side of wanting to grow the elk herds aren't they? Didn't they try to sue the state over the elk population?
seeth07
Well-known member
Could you help me find a commissioner elk tag for Wyoming for under 10k so I can use it in unit 100 or 124? Or how about a CO landowner tag in unit 40?
Nameless Range
Well-known member
It's important to remember too, that transferable tags are commodities, and I think it is safe to assume that over time, the value of these commodities will only go up relative to the amount of capital the average hunter has.
In the long run, hunters without an inordinate amount of capital will have far less opportunity. This is true even in a state that largely adheres to equal opportunity in the drawing process, but will absolutely be exacerbated in a system where tags are reduced to transferable.
In the long run, hunters without an inordinate amount of capital will have far less opportunity. This is true even in a state that largely adheres to equal opportunity in the drawing process, but will absolutely be exacerbated in a system where tags are reduced to transferable.
SAJ-99
Well-known member
I hunted NM last year as a NR for under $1000 to the NMG&F. Averages can be deceiving. I am not paying $5000 or $10000 for a hunt, but I also don't fault people who can and will pay a landowner/outfitter. They are not the enemy, nor is capitalism. All those other states face the same problem to some degree, where the large swath of Rs feel there is inequity in allocations. I also note that those states have various suggestions equating to unlimited tags or hiring sharp shooters to shoot elk from a helicopter? The NM model just places a value on the animal. It does make me a little uncomfortable, but I have to acknowledge its benefits.
I don't know the "best" solution, or even if there is one. The one thing I do know is the popularity of elk has increased with the amount of people. Add to that the income disparity in America between the top 20% and the bottom 50% and it is easy to see how this will continue.
I have watched a few RMEF films where someone is hunting on a private ranch, including in NM. Given RMEF's goal of putting more elk on the mountain, is it ok for them to purchase a tag? (not sure they did or if it was donated. Money raising in non-profits is an ugly business that I like to avoid).
What if supply increases…?
Letthemgrow
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Do you think 100 is equal to 124?
I've been trying for 124 for a long time and have heard 100 doesn't have the top end that 124 does?
No leads on 40 in Colorado but I do for unit 2.
Gonna need a 2 or 3 x multiplier on your number though.
Nameless Range
Well-known member
I doubt supply would/will increase in a meaningful way. Maybe that is an incorrect assumption.
Further, in the long run, I see no way short of a plague for supply increases to ever keep up with increases in demand in the long term. A subset of the effect of that demand increase also being the increase in hunter efficacy.
I think that is something hunters in any system should come to terms with.
seeth07
Well-known member
This is what is actually wrong with the system. They use those ratios - private to public - in determining the amount of tags that go to those in the program. However, its honestly a VERY poor metric for doing so. Like look at unit 17. Where the bulk of the elk will spend their time and a bulk of the habitat required for them is on public land right? Yet a good portion will get allocated in EPLUS for the ranchers in the program there.
npaden
Well-known member
I haven't ever looked at a 16D rifle tag. I was specifically thinking about Unit 36 when I posted that and I have seen those listed for less than $10,000. Just looked at an outfitter's website and the price difference between a Fully Guided with a landowner tag and a Fully Guided without a landowner tag was $7,500. That's where the governor's tag bull was killed a few years ago.
Here's a fully guided hunt with the tag for $10,500 in Unit 36 which I think is one of the best units in the states. That's the one I apply for in the public draw that allocates 6% of the tags to unguided nonresidents.
Private Land Elk Hunting in Unit 36 New Mexico | thedraw
This private land elk hunts are located in the heart of the Sacramento Mountains of New Mexico. It is just shy of 7,000 acres and boarders on multiple sides the world famous Mescalero Reservation. Hunters can expect to be hunting 300+ inch bulls and the ranch will produce a couple 340-360 bulls...
www.thedraw.com
seeth07
Well-known member
That is my point....the best unit in the state is going to run auction/landowner tags/etc. at top end prices. You can't cherry pick that unit and use it as an example.
Letthemgrow
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That seems like a great value from what I've seen. Must a RO tag?I haven't ever looked at a 16D rifle tag. I was specifically thinking about Unit 36 when I posted that and I have seen those listed for less than $10,000. Just looked at an outfitter's website and the price difference between a Fully Guided with a landowner tag and a Fully Guided without a landowner tag was $7,500. That's where the governor's tag bull was killed a few years ago.
Here's a fully guided hunt with the tag for $10,500 in Unit 36 which I think is one of the best units in the states. That's the one I apply for in the public draw that allocates 6% of the tags to unguided nonresidents.
Private Land Elk Hunting in Unit 36 New Mexico | thedraw
This private land elk hunts are located in the heart of the Sacramento Mountains of New Mexico. It is just shy of 7,000 acres and boarders on multiple sides the world famous Mescalero Reservation. Hunters can expect to be hunting 300+ inch bulls and the ranch will produce a couple 340-360 bulls...
I include 36 in my draw sequence some years as well.
seeth07
Well-known member
That is the unit I had to think really long and hard about when I got the offer to buy a last minute elk voucher last fall. Was UNIT WIDE. It was way less than $7500.I haven't ever looked at a 16D rifle tag. I was specifically thinking about Unit 36 when I posted that and I have seen those listed for less than $10,000. Just looked at an outfitter's website and the price difference between a Fully Guided with a landowner tag and a Fully Guided without a landowner tag was $7,500. That's where the governor's tag bull was killed a few years ago.
Here's a fully guided hunt with the tag for $10,500 in Unit 36 which I think is one of the best units in the states. That's the one I apply for in the public draw that allocates 6% of the tags to unguided nonresidents.
Private Land Elk Hunting in Unit 36 New Mexico | thedraw
This private land elk hunts are located in the heart of the Sacramento Mountains of New Mexico. It is just shy of 7,000 acres and boarders on multiple sides the world famous Mescalero Reservation. Hunters can expect to be hunting 300+ inch bulls and the ranch will produce a couple 340-360 bulls...
Letthemgrow
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You obviously didn't understand the point of my post.
I agree with the majority of what he said.
But when he said, "At best it seems that you are trying to exaggerate things", I just wanted to try and bring him back to center a little.
He was pretty spot on about the rest.
seeth07
Well-known member
I think it would be extremely helpful data to know the breakdown of the 13.6k EPLUS tags.
What number are UW/RO - this one I guess is easy enough to do the legwork and figure out.
What number are turned into a license? From the way I understand the process, you buy the voucher and then turn it into NMF&G and receive a tag. This number I'm sure will explain the huge increase in elk licenses issued overall from 2018 to 2019. There was an increase of almost 5,000 EPLUS vouchers. Was it because they knew 5,000 weren't going to get turned in and used under the new process?
What number are sold for more than $100 (roughly the R cost).
What number are sold for more than $1000 (rough comparison to NR public draw cost).
What number are sold for more than $10,000 not including outfitter services?
What number are sold for more than $10,000 including outfitter services?
brocksw
Well-known member
Residents pay 90 bucks. You're going to tell me that when tens of thousands of New Mexican residents are going without a tag every year, and 40% of the New Mexico elk tags are getting sold for 20x-200X their resident rate that is somehow not exactly how it looks? I think it's pretty straight forward. Lower that 40% to 10% and put the rest back into the public resident draw for 90 bucks a piece and I would say that would lower the average elk tag price in NM quite significantly. To the benefit of the resident New Mexican beneficiary, I might add. Nothing deceiving about it.
I don't fault them 1 iota. I only fault them when they are using political means to take more than their fair share from the public.
What other state is giving anywhere close 35% of their elk tags to NR?
What benefits can you prove come from this system? Elk populations in other states are growing as well. Some of those states have 0 transferable elk tags. But in those states way more of their residents get a tag.
New Mexico is still one of the poorest states, so the tens of millions of dollars going to landowners isn't trickling down in some significant way.
Mean while tens of thousands of New Mexican residents go without tags every year. I can't imagine this bodes well for youth hunting in New Mexico. I think it's a fundamental problem to the future of this activity in the eyes of regular, everyday New Mexican residents.
that was our NR allocation until this year, on top of unlimited otc and 20% transferable...
seeth07
Well-known member
Your numbers are wrong. You are continuously failing to remember that half of those 40% are cow tags.
15% are going for 20x-200x.
10% are probably being used by the landowners themselves or friends (i.e. @hank4elk)
the other 15% are going for 5x-20x
*note that i'm totally spitballing numbers just like you and would love to know the actual breakdown
brocksw
Well-known member
According to this podcast, 54.5% of the total elk are obtained by a New Mexico resident hunter without paying a landowner or outfitter.
Episode 199: Wildlife Trustees – Accountable to Who? – Hunt Talk Radio
hunttalkradio.com
brocksw
Well-known member
“Just last year, that generated more than $83-million worth of sales to private individuals that are selling a public resource,” Jesse Deubel, the Executive Director of the NM Wildlife Federation told KRQE."
If I am not mistaken, Mr. Deubel has expounded on this since this article and stated specifically that the 83 million is just landowner tag costs, and does not include guide/outfitter fees or other costs attached.
newmexicosun.com
Run that across the graphic below and that's $5,452 per tag on average, or 60X more than the resident price of $90, for every elk tag not included in public resident or NR draw. 15,223 tags in total for eplus and outfitter set asides. And that's being generous, as my understanding is that a decent number of those Eplus tags don't get used and are not returned back to the public. So the actual number of tags being sold is lower than 15,223, potentially significantly lower, making the cost per tag higher.
If I am not mistaken, Mr. Deubel has expounded on this since this article and stated specifically that the 83 million is just landowner tag costs, and does not include guide/outfitter fees or other costs attached.
Locals hunters complaining about distribution of elk tags valued near '$83-million'
Local hunters think they’re getting the raw end of the deal when it comes to handing out elk tags and are asking the state Gaming Commission to review its policies.
newmexicosun.com
Run that across the graphic below and that's $5,452 per tag on average, or 60X more than the resident price of $90, for every elk tag not included in public resident or NR draw. 15,223 tags in total for eplus and outfitter set asides. And that's being generous, as my understanding is that a decent number of those Eplus tags don't get used and are not returned back to the public. So the actual number of tags being sold is lower than 15,223, potentially significantly lower, making the cost per tag higher.
Exposing the Truth About Elk Hunting License Allocation in New Mexico
In 2022, the New Mexico Wildlife Federation (NMWF) and New Mexico Backcountry Hunters & Anglers (BHA) released a groundbreaking report titled “Take Back Your Elk.” Looking at data from the 2020-21 elk season, the report documented for the first time exact
www.takebackyourelk.com
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