New brass prep?

[ImBillT]

WOW! You guy's must all have sub 1/4" thousand yd rifles. I tried that debur the flash hole trick, didn't change one thing. I don't uniform primer pocket's and still manage to get rifle's to go 1/2" now and then. I don't champher case mouth's for the pure joy of doing it, never ever found not doing it a problem. Never noticed that ammo from shinny case's fired better than the same from new case's or even dull case's for that matter. Been my experience that so long as the length of the case's wasn't that critical unless the case was over length. Some of you guy's really make a chore out of loading case's! And in the end most of you still aren't gonna get a one hole group!

100yds, 5 shots, .308Win, 6X scope.

I’ve shot my share of 2”-3” groups at 500yds. It’s been about five years, but I used to shoot F-TR in a club match at 530yds and in NRA mid range and long range matches. Mid range is 300, 500, 600, and the long range match I shot in was 1000yds only, but I believe some shoot 800, 900, and 1000. I usually placed about middle of the pack, and was not being beaten by people who did less prep. Many of them did even more prep and sorting, but could shoot well enough at 200yds with the methods I was using that the ammo was not my problem. I really needed more practice to learn to shoot long range, but at the time the only decent local range was 100yd and 200yd benchrest club. I can use small batches of weight sorted match prepped brass that is in too small a group to complete a match with in my hunting .308’s, and 6.5-257AI and I can size down .308 and use it in my .243, so why not use it? Is it that important? No, but I’ve shot 5 shot groups that measured under .300” just checking sight-in with the .243. The rest of the hunting guns shoot about .5MOA. None of my posts claimed that all that was required to hunt, but when a guy is saying that he can’t tell the difference between Lapua and the cheap stuff, he’s most likely not doing any of the things that reveal the differences.

 

[N2TRKYS]

Are you looking inside the case at the flasholes or from the outside? The burr is on the inside. You have to look through the case neck to see it. Also, they may shoot out. I really don’t know, but they’re in new brass, but I can’t say I’ve seen them in range pickups. I don’t know if the factory deburrs flasholes on loaded ammo or if they just shoot out.

I put over 30 firings on my last batch of Lapua .308 before I retired it. I can’t do that with any other brands because they require more sizing to prevent a stiff bolt close.

If your only problem with Lapua brass is that some of them have dents in the neck or body, then your definition of subpar has absolutely nothing to do with the reasons that people like Lapua brass.

If you like paying premium prices for piss poor QC, then that's your business. I'm not gonna settle for it. I get as many loadings with other brands as I do with Lapua.

 

[Idahoarcheryhunter]

Peterson brass has been treating me really well, I have no reason to buy lapua anymore IMO.

 

[Addicting]

Winters are long in the Northern Rockies, and I'm too old to have kids or try more than once a day.

Best response yet!

 

[VikingsGuy]

Winters are long in the Northern Rockies, and I'm too old to have kids or try more than once a day.

Don't they have little blue pills in MT?

 

[shaffe48]

I put over 30 firings on my last batch of Lapua .308 before I retired it. I can’t do that with any other brands because they require more sizing to prevent a stiff bolt

So is this only if you neck resize? Would you only get 10 reloads or so with a full resize?

I'm adding up the cost per round to start reloading again with a .308 this time. Plan on standard pressure manual loads with 180 bullets.

 

[antelopedundee]

Appreciate everyone’s input. I ended up with the Hornady because it seems everyone is out of the high end 7mm Rem brass. This bunch will get me thru load development and a few years. I am hoping to get 5 cycles out of it.

I need to order a LE Wilson case gauge for it so I can trim them to length.

I've got one of those file type trim dies in .30-06 from a long time ago. I just used it to make one dummy case of the proper length and use it to set up my Forster trimmer for all of my .30-06 based cases which are at this point a .25-06 and a 6.5-06. Necks on something like a 6.5-06 Imp seem not to grow at all and will likely never need trimming.

 

[Addicting]

I just finished up the batch last night. I ended up with 95 cases machined to match. I cut the primer pockets, resized, trimmed to 2.490, chamfered the mouth, and deburred the flash hole. I buggered up the first 3 setting up the trimmer and then had 2 of the batch that had minor defects. I will use those 5 for break in, sight in, and load testing. All total I have a few hours at the bench working this brass. I can see the argument for the better brass if your time is in the equation. I just found that that there is a satisfaction in working it and knowing that they are exactly the same.

 

[sbhooper]

All new brass has the possibility of having some issues. It is called a manufacturing process. I have been reloading for over 40 years and I have never de-burred a primer hole. The primer pocket-yes-because some brass is crimped in and needs to be swaged. Most all new brass should be run through a full-length sizing die and checked for length. If you are a hair-splitter, target shooter, then every little thing can make a difference. Mostly, for field use it is not necessary.

I have never owned a rifle, that I could not get to shoot moa, or less with whatever brass that I chose. I like the Hornady brass just fine and currently use it in .308, Creed, and .260 (.308 necked down). I have tried Lapua and others and do not see any super advantage to spending that kind of money for brass. All of my rifles shoot 1/2-moa groups with once-fired Hornady brass (I have never bought new) , so I will stay with it.

Some people tend to make this more complicated than it is.

 

[Addicting]

All new brass has the possibility of having some issues. It is called a manufacturing process. I have been reloading for over 40 years and I have never de-burred a primer hole. The primer pocket-yes-because some brass is crimped in and needs to be swaged. Most all new brass should be run through a full-length sizing die and checked for length. If you are a hair-splitter, target shooter, then every little thing can make a difference. Mostly, for field use it is not necessary.

I have never owned a rifle, that I could not get to shoot moa, or less with whatever brass that I chose. I like the Hornady brass just fine and currently use it in .308, Creed, and .260 (.308 necked down). I have tried Lapua and others and do not see any super advantage to spending that kind of money for brass. All of my rifles shoot 1/2-moa groups with once-fired Hornady brass (I have never bought new) , so I will stay with it.

Some people tend to make this more complicated than it is.

I tend to agree for a hunting rifle. I just have time while I wait for my back ordered scope rings. So, I gave them the full monte at my current skill level.

 

[ImBillT]

So is this only if you neck resize? Would you only get 10 reloads or so with a full resize?

I'm adding up the cost per round to start reloading again with a .308 this time. Plan on standard pressure manual loads with 180 bullets.

Yes that is neck sizing only. Full length sizing would reduce life for sure. The softer brass requires more frequent full length sizing to prevent a hard bolt close. To maximize your brass life while full length sizing you should size it no more than you have to. Pull the firing pin from your bolt so that closing the bolt does not require any force to @#)(# the firing pin. Then back out your sizing die so that you’re barely sizing your case. Now try it in your gun. You’ll encounter resistance trying to close the bolt. Turn the sizing die slightly and repeat the process. As soon as you can close the bolt all the way with only slight resistance, lock your die in place. Now you’re full length sizing without over sizing. You’ll probably split necks eventually before you wear out your brass if you aren’t using a bushing die or annealing your necks.

 

[shaffe48]

Yes that is neck sizing only. Full length sizing would reduce life for sure. The softer brass requires more frequent full length sizing to prevent a hard bolt close. To maximize your brass life while full length sizing you should size it no more than you have to. Pull the firing pin from your bolt so that closing the bolt does not require any force to @#)(# the firing pin. Then back out your sizing die so that you’re barely sizing your case. Now try it in your gun. You’ll encounter resistance trying to close the bolt. Turn the sizing die slightly and repeat the process. As soon as you can close the bolt all the way with only slight resistance, lock your die in place. Now you’re full length sizing without over sizing. You’ll probably split necks eventually before you wear out your brass if you aren’t using a bushing die or annealing your necks.

Sizing this way would I need to fire through new brass once before I work up loads with it?

 

[ImBillT]

Sizing this way would I need to fire through new brass once before I work up loads with it?

If you’re looking to get maximum results, yes you would need to be using once fired brass. Your pressure and velocity, as well as the amount of powder required to get there will change very slightly from new brass to fired brass whose dimensions now match your chamber. To get maximum velocity, or to stay on an accuracy node you would need to make a slight adjustment.

Now there are many competitive shooters that will shoot new brass in a match rather than waste bullets, barrel life and brass life just shooting to form the brass to their chamber dimensions. Those shooters however are using customs chambered barrels that were chambered with reamers designed to cut a chamber to fit Lapua brass. They are one of the few companies that consistent. In that case, their brass doesn’t change dimension from new to the subsequent firing. Thise reamers usually use either a tight-neck, or a no-turn neck. Either way it’s a very good fit on the neck that keeps the cartridge well centered even using new brass. Those shooters also shoot numerous barrels chambered with the same reamer, and they already have great loads figured out that work with that barrel length, contour, and reamer. This allows even guys shooting AI’s, Shehanes, BRXs, and PPCs to shoot great even when fireforming to a wildcat cartridge. You’d be hard pressed to get match grade accuracy just picking a random load and using random brass fired through a SAAMI spec chamber.

Would the difference be enough to worry about for hunting? I doubt it, but I don’t know. I usually use 20 pcs of brass for a hunting rig, so if I’m not using brass from a match gun in the same cartridge, then I sight-in and work toward a hot charge on the first firing. I can fiddle with seating depth if I’m using VLDs and am getting poor results. That’s an 18 shot process that doesn’t require your finished powder charge, and you can get on paper with two, and work toward the center between three shot groups. If for some reason I’m sighted in quickly and have an idea where I’m going with load, I can practice shooting off-hand. I finish out my kid developement with once fired brass, and then I just keep those 20 cases loaded at all times. If I shoot 5 at the range, I reload them before I head out. If I shoot 2-3 on a hunt I reload then when I get home.

 

[shaffe48]

If you’re looking to get maximum results, yes you would need to be using once fired brass. Your pressure and velocity, as well as the amount of powder required to get there will change very slightly from new brass to fired brass whose dimensions now match your chamber. To get maximum velocity, or to stay on an accuracy node you would need to make a slight adjustment.

Now there are many competitive shooters that will shoot new brass in a match rather than waste bullets, barrel life and brass life just shooting to form the brass to their chamber dimensions. Those shooters however are using customs chambered barrels that were chambered with reamers designed to cut a chamber to fit Lapua brass. They are one of the few companies that consistent. In that case, their brass doesn’t change dimension from new to the subsequent firing. Thise reamers usually use either a tight-neck, or a no-turn neck. Either way it’s a very good fit on the neck that keeps the cartridge well centered even using new brass. Those shooters also shoot numerous barrels chambered with the same reamer, and they already have great loads figured out that work with that barrel length, contour, and reamer. This allows even guys shooting AI’s, Shehanes, BRXs, and PPCs to shoot great even when fireforming to a wildcat cartridge. You’d be hard pressed to get match grade accuracy just picking a random load and using random brass fired through a SAAMI spec chamber.

Would the difference be enough to worry about for hunting? I doubt it, but I don’t know. I usually use 20 pcs of brass for a hunting rig, so if I’m not using brass from a match gun in the same cartridge, then I sight-in and work toward a hot charge on the first firing. I can fiddle with seating depth if I’m using VLDs and am getting poor results. That’s an 18 shot process that doesn’t require your finished powder charge, and you can get on paper with two, and work toward the center between three shot groups. If for some reason I’m sighted in quickly and have an idea where I’m going with load, I can practice shooting off-hand. I finish out my kid developement with once fired brass, and then I just keep those 20 cases loaded at all times. If I shoot 5 at the range, I reload them before I head out. If I shoot 2-3 on a hunt I reload then when I get home.

Ok. I'm definitely trying to replicate factory performance which is pretty good but at a lower cost without cutting too many corners. I think I will work up loads with the new brass and double check my groups amd pressure signs after I fire it.

 

[OhHeyThereBen]

Ok. I'm definitely trying to replicate factory performance which is pretty good but at a lower cost without cutting too many corners. I think I will work up loads with the new brass and double check my groups amd pressure signs after I fire it.

You should have no issues whatsoever with surpassing your average factory loads for less money (after your recoup your cost of tools). I just full length size mine and it works just fine. Yeah, brass probably won't last as long, but if you can get 8-10 firings from one piece of brass you'll still be saving quite a bit of cash. Depending on the factory loads you're thinking of and how much you shoot, you'll make back your investment pretty quickly. And that's with cutting zero "corners" in the process and quality components.

 

[ImBillT]

Ok. I'm definitely trying to replicate factory performance which is pretty good but at a lower cost without cutting too many corners. I think I will work up loads with the new brass and double check my groups amd pressure signs after I fire it.

If all you’re trying to do is duplicate factory performance, I would just buy Winchester brass or pick it up off the ground somewhere. Full length size, chamfer and deburr, trim .010” under max length and go with it. No need to over think duplicating factory performance. If you really wanted to be quick about it you could probably just measure length for safety, full length size, and skip the rest. I would set up your dies to size the least amount required for an easy bolt close no matter what you do otherwise.

 

[shaffe48]

If all you’re trying to do is duplicate factory performance, I would just buy Winchester brass or pick it up off the ground somewhere. Full length size, chamfer and deburr, trim .010” under max length and go with it. No need to over think duplicating factory performance. If you really wanted to be quick about it you could probably just measure length for safety, full length size, and skip the rest. I would set up your dies to size the least amount required for an easy bolt close no matter what you do otherwise.

Looks like lapua is a little under twice as expensive as winchester. So if I got twice as many loads it would pay for itself. That is why the 30 reloads caught my eye.

 

[ImBillT]

Looks like lapua is a little under twice as expensive as winchester. So if I got twice as many loads it would pay for itself. That is why the 30 reloads caught my eye.

Lapua is great stuff, and will outlast about everything, but you won’t get 30 reloads without annealing your necks unless you’re using a bushing die. Non-bushing sizing dies overwork the necks. Because Lapua is annealed from the factory its necks will oulast Winchester necks any way you size them(assuming you size both brands the same way) if you’re not annealing your brass. Even Lapua necks will work harden and need to be annealed again though if they’re being over-sized(I only anneal necks when mixing batches of match prepped brass to form one large batch). Still, if you’re not doing any of the match prep steps, Winchester is actually a good value. It is hard brass, and will last quite a while if you don’t over-work the neck, or if you anneal necks. Furthermore, unlike Lapua brass, you can probably get Winchester for free from a buddy or off the ground. I would rather work late and pay for Lapua than spend the extra hours making Winchester suitable for a match, and I don’t even make much money, but for simply duplicating factory ammo, any brand will do and Winchester is the hardest of the domestics in my experience. Magnums and some of the more modern rounds have higher SAAMI pressure specs than most other cartridges, and in order to tolerate that pressure, brass for those cartridges is pretty hard from all manufactures, but for most cartridges Lapua is the hardest and Winchester is probably the second hardest. S&B makes some of Winchester’s brass, and I really don’t know where they fall on the hardness scale.

I’m far from someone who believes that you have to use Lapua or else. I use Lapua, Norma, RWS(that I did not pay retail for), IMI, Sako(I suspect its Norma) Winchester and Federal. I gave up on Remington after some bad experiences, but they may or may not have addressed their issues. I’ve had issues with Lake City, and some of the cheaper foreign stuff. You can make any of it work and its value is dependent upon its purpose, how you plan to size it, if you anneal it, and how much prep you do. Any variations in those four aspects will impact which brand is of what value. If someone says brand X, that I have been pleased with, is not very good, or is slipping, I would like to know what issue they are having with it. If it’s an issue that would bother me, then perhaps I would avoid that brand in favor of another. If it's actually a non-issue to me, then I know to discount their statement, at least for my purposes.

 

[Addicting]

It was a dreary day outside so I decided to work in my reloading room. I had read a few articles about weight sorting and I had a found a used Gem Pro 250 scale, so I started tinkering. I found a huge variation in weight in the Hornady Brass I bought, almost 20 grains different. The photos below are grouped by .5 grain groups from the smallest on top to the heaviest on bottom. Biggest group was 229 grains to 230.5 grains. This makes the higher end stuff more reasonable if you get all of them within .5 grains.

 

[mtmuley]

Weight sorting brass for hunting loads equals waste of time. mtmuley