ND Game and Fish coming under fire for CWD Management

[wct12]

At this point I give up answering questions and posting links. I’ve been doing it here for years, to what end? Every few months a new crop of armchair biologists show up with the same fake news and misrepresentations, making the same accusations, asking the same insincere questions. No amount of posting or discussion will satisfy those who have already made up their minds and are staunchly anti-science. In this Internet age, there is plenty of legit research readily available online for those who truly want to see what we know, what we don’t know, and the information being used to support management directions. Not a single biologist would disagree with you that we don’t know as much as we would like to. But throwing up hands and saying oh well isn’t a management strategy. You use what you do know, until you have better information, do you not?


You know why that is, right? Because it increases densities and raises contact rates between individuals. You know, kinda like baiting/feeding does, which is the mechanism by which it is known to exacerbate other better-understood diseases.


Probably because population declines have been documented in infected Sask mule deer herds. And Wyoming Mule deer. And Wyoming whitetails. And Colorado mule deer. And Wind Cave elk. Some of our very own Sask HT members have confirmed they’ve personally observed this on this very forum. I’ve posted links to these here before, many times.


I usually take name calling or personal jabs to mean someone lacks the mental capacity to actually engage in the discussion. That’s usually my cue to leave the chat.

Have a good weekend.

Never claimed to be a biologist, just use the same numbers from Nodak that the biologists are choosing to ignore..

In all of the studies the game and fishes uses it has maybe and may nots, cans and cannots.. You can't call it science unless it's actually proven data. Otherwise it's just a theory. The numbers I posted are data. Right from their website. Test numbers, and results. I just am curious as to why it is being ignored and moved away from now.

As far as overpopulation, why just steal the first sentence instead of a responding to the whole statement?.. The game and fish uses hunting to manage numbers.. Archery Hunting is included in this. Taking a tool for population control away increases chances at population Increases.. And that increased population from mismangement is more detrimental than a bait pile congregating 20 deer.. Food plots funded by the game and fish literally are used to congregate deer, but yet they still fund that and intercept feeding programs.. Seems a little counter productive to me to claim 1 of the tools to congregate deer is bad and rhen fund another tool.

Sasks deer density is still higher then nodaks. Deer numbers fluctuate naturally. Before CWD was found in sask the population varied up and down from year to year and will continue to. Heck, it does in units in nodak that are CWD. I've seen winter and acidosis and the game and fish kill more deer in my lifetime then i have ever seen CWD POSITIVELY KILL in our state or other states. How can an always deadly disease have 0 positive deaths in nodak? They use fear mongering with statements like it targets big bucks.. There's 0 scientific data to show a 150" whitetail is more susceptible to CWD then a doe, but they use that statement frequently.. That's fear mongering, not science.

 

[wct12]

Agree, Bait/mineral are low hanging fruit.

What about food plots and intercept feeding programs funded by the game and fish?

 

[Elktrack]

I'm way more inclined to try these types of things over large scale depopulation.

Agreed.

It’s interesting how some take any form of resistance to the culling method as a personal attack on their superior intellect. Despite the very studies and research that keeps being referenced showing marginal if any positive impact thus far.

Disagreeing with the methodology doesn’t imply a disbelief that it exists or that there’s not measures that need to be taken to slow the spread.

I try and not comment on it anymore because it’s apparent that if you’re not in the “shoot em all for their own good” camp because it’s the most widely accepted method preferred by the expert wildlife managers, you’re a science denying, ignorant, hillbilly.

 

[antlerradar]

What about food plots and intercept feeding programs funded by the game and fish?

That fruit is just up the branch.

 

[BuzzH]

What about food plots and intercept feeding programs funded by the game and fish?

A ten acre food plot and a pile of corn at a corn flinger near a tree stand are not one and the same...

Just like wild deer and those confined to pens aren't the same.

Why not eliminate the easy things first?

 

[8andcounting]

What an idiot. Her record speak for itself.

I didn’t read who the post was from I just read the posts

 

[mtmiller]

I didn’t read who the post was from I just read the posts

Not helping yourself.

 

[Hunting Wife]

After having talked with lots of people involved with CWD I'm not convinced, at this time, we have the ability to stop it from spreading. I doubt very much we can even control prelevance. Could be wrong but successes are hard to find and reconcile.

I suppose time will tell, but experts I've talked with are not confident it will be ever be controlled.

But, there are some common sense things we can do, and imo, decreasing contact at bait/mineral piles makes sense. Not to mention the list of other diseases that can be problematic as well, CWD being controllable or not aside.

I'm way more inclined to try these types of things over large scale depopulation.

I completely agree. Far too late to stop it where it’s endemic now. For culling to be effective, I think is would have to be very early, when infection was localized and small…again, like New York did. I know you’ve probably heard me say that before. No way it will work now where it’s widely distributed and highly prevalent. Once it’s in the environment, my gut tells me the efficacy of culling is basically zero.

Can we maintain some negative populations somewhere? Today, I have to say probably not with the acceptable tools we have. Can we keep prevalences below some threshold where it doesn’t result in large scale declines? Who knows. Can we keep prevalences below some threshold where populations maintain the ability to bounce back from things like EHD, droughts, winter-kill? I really hope so.

But like you say, we have to at least be willing to do some things like address the low hanging fruit if we hope to preserve those things. I have to honest…at this point we’re really having to lower our expectations about what’s possible.

 

[wct12]

A ten acre food plot and a pile of corn at a corn flinger near a tree stand are not one and the same...

Just like wild deer and those confined to pens aren't the same.

Why not eliminate the easy things first?

You think there are many 10 acre food plots being planted in North Dakota?? A majority of food plots are lucky to be a half an acre. And that food plot is planted in the same spot year after year.. And CWD prions are prevalent in the soil for years. What about game and fish intercept feeding programs?

 

[DGND]

Probably because population declines have been documented in infected Sask mule deer herds. And Wyoming Mule deer. And Wyoming whitetails. And Colorado mule deer. And Wind Cave elk. Some of our very own Sask HT members have confirmed they’ve personally observed this on this very forum. I’ve posted links to these here before, many times.

Wind Cave has a high fence around it. It has a known CWD presence. The population was growing behind wire so the Park Service opened the fence in spots and helicopters were used to chase 400 of them north into Custer State Park. The State of South Dakota handed out extra tags for Custer and the elk scattered.

Wind Cave National Park Sends Elk Herd To Neighboring Custer State Park

Airborne cowboys have herded hundreds of elk from Wind Cave National Park in South Dakota into neigboring Custer State Park under a plan to both reduce the elk population in the national park while boosting it in the state park.

www.nationalparkstraveler.org

 

[wct12]

I completely agree. Far too late to stop it where it’s endemic now. For culling to be effective, I think is would have to be very early, when infection was localized and small…again, like New York did. I know you’ve probably heard me say that before. No way it will work now where it’s widely distributed and highly prevalent. Once it’s in the environment, my gut tells me the efficacy of culling is basically zero.

Can we maintain some negative populations somewhere? Today, I have to say probably not with the acceptable tools we have. Can we keep prevalences below some threshold where it doesn’t result in large scale declines? Who knows. Can we keep prevalences below some threshold where populations maintain the ability to bounce back from things like EHD, droughts, winter-kill? I really hope so.

But like you say, we have to at least be willing to do some things like address the low hanging fruit if we hope to preserve those things. I have to honest…at this point we’re really having to lower our expectations about what’s possible.

Why doesn't the game and fish address things they can actually control? EHD as you stated has a very negative impact on deer populations. There's ways to help limit the spread of EHD, yet the game and fish does nothing. Absolutely nothing to help with that. Is it because they don't want to, or is it because there is no federal funding tied to EHD testing and problem solving?

 

[redwoood]

You think there are many 10 acre food plots being planted in North Dakota?? A majority of food plots are lucky to be a half an acre. And that food plot is planted in the same spot year after year.. And CWD prions are prevalent in the soil for years. What about game and fish intercept feeding programs?

Plenty of 10 acre food plots in Missouri, and the same BS. Although we couldn't ever bait during season(luckily.) No mineral allowed outside of season now to to CWD management.

The biggest problem with CWD management is the amount of government money that's involved.

Let's do something even if it's wrong, and keep the gravy train rolling.

 

[Hunting Wife]

Why doesn't the game and fish address things they can actually control? EHD as you stated has a very negative impact on deer populations. There's ways to help limit the spread of EHD, yet the game and fish does nothing. Absolutely nothing to help with that. Is it because they don't want to, or is it because there is no federal funding tied to EHD testing and problem solving?

Please educate me. What are those ways, exactly? Biologists across North America and Europe would be very interested to learn of these techniques.

Wind Cave has a high fence around it. It has a known CWD presence. The population was growing behind wire so the Park Service opened the fence in spots and helicopters were used to chase 400 of them north into Custer State Park. The State of South Dakota handed out extra tags for Custer and the elk scattered.

Wind Cave National Park Sends Elk Herd To Neighboring Custer State Park

Airborne cowboys have herded hundreds of elk from Wind Cave National Park in South Dakota into neigboring Custer State Park under a plan to both reduce the elk population in the national park while boosting it in the state park.

www.nationalparkstraveler.org

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That’s a pretty dated article. In 2018 I attended a conference where park biologists were studying an unexpectedly high mortality in park elk. CWD prevalence had risen to 18%. Collaring studies revealed CWD was accelerating mortality, and models suggested the population would not persist beyond 40 years (could be wrong on the timeline). Lately, they have reduced the population and current sampling suggests the prevalence has fallen and may be stabilizing. They are currently trying to understand prevalence and mortality differences among sub-populations in the park. But as you note, much easier to implement strategies on a small, discrete population.

 

[BuzzH]

You think there are many 10 acre food plots being planted in North Dakota?? A majority of food plots are lucky to be a half an acre. And that food plot is planted in the same spot year after year.. And CWD prions are prevalent in the soil for years. What about game and fish intercept feeding programs?

Still a big difference between a half acre food plot and a pile of corn under a corn flinger...

If you can't see the difference then ban food plots too.

 

[wct12]

Plenty of 10 acre food plots in Missouri, and the same BS. Although we couldn't ever bait during season(luckily.) No mineral allowed outside of season now to to CWD management.

The biggest problem with CWD management is the amount of government money that's involved.

Let's do something even if it's wrong, and keep the gravy train rolling.

I would bet a good chunk of money north dakota has 10x more half acre food plots then they do 10 acre food plots unfortunately. Lots of neighbors have been running food plots, none larger then the size of 3-4 pickups unfortunately. Mainly due to them being in areas they can be planted where they are actually effective unfortunately. Not enough habitat left unfortunately.

 

[DGND]

Plenty of 10 acre food plots in Missouri, and the same BS. Although we couldn't ever bait during season(luckily.) No mineral allowed outside of season now to to CWD management.

The biggest problem with CWD management is the amount of government money that's involved.

Let's do something even if it's wrong, and keep the gravy train rolling.

https://www.joplinglobe.com/sports/...cle_cc21440c-57da-11ed-a4d8-6b1368feef7b.html

• During Nov. 12–13 (modern firearms season), hunters who harvest deer in CWD Management Zone counties — except Gasconade, Knox, St. Charles and Warren — must take the deer or deer head on the day of harvest to an MDC mandatory CWD sampling station.

• The use of grain, salt products, minerals and other consumable products used to attract deer is prohibited year-round in CWD Management Zone counties.

• Deer harvested from CWD Management Zone counties must be reported through Telecheck before they can be removed from the county of harvest.

• Hunters must follow carcass-movement restrictions for deer harvested in a CWD Management Zone county.

Deer culling underway to 'slow the spread' of chronic wasting disease in Missouri​

Sara Karnes, Springfield News-Leader
Sat, February 4, 2023 at 5:30 AM CST


Targeted culling of Missouri deer is underway in areas where new cases of chronic wasting disease were found following the latest deer harvests.
The deer-hunting season wrapped up Jan. 15 with preliminary reporting from Missouri Department of Conservation showing a total of 299,721 deer killed.
Chronic wasting disease is a deadly, infectious disease in deer and other cervids. The disease eventually kills all animals it infects. The disease spreads through improper disposal of deer carcasses and through the environment where a deer comes into contact with infectious material from another deer.

Targeted culling within two miles of where the disease has been detected is conducted from Jan. 16 to March 15. MDC's Cervid Program Supervisor Jason Isabelle told the News-Leader earlier this week that around 29,400 samples with roughly 830 more to go have been tested this year, and, so far, 74 came back positive from 21 counties in Missouri.

The targeted culling is done with landowners' permission either by themselves or by MDC staff. Some methods that are prohibited during deer-hunting season, including shooting over bait and shooting at night, are allowed during the targeted culling, Isabelle said. "Those methods allow for our culling efforts to be as effective and as efficient as possible."

Deer that are culled are tested for the disease. If the wasting disease is not detected in the culled deer, the landowner has the first opportunity to keep the deer meat themselves or donate it to Share the Harvest. Positive deer are disposed of, Isabelle said.

This past year, 3,000 deer were culled and 32 samples tested positive, with 86 total detected statewide.

The previous three years saw:

• 21 CWD-positive out of 2,396 deer culled with 46 total detected statewide in 2019;
• 18 CWD-positive out of 2,692 deer culled with 44 total detected statewide in 2020;
• 32 CWD-positive out of 3,072 deer culled with 86 total detected statewide in 2021.

"This is a disease management tool," Isabelle explained. "Targeted culling is a proven method of slowing the spread of CWD."

 

[wct12]

Y

Please educate me. What are those ways, exactly? Biologists across North America and Europe would be very interested to learn of these techniques.


That’s a pretty dated article. In 2018 I attended a conference where park biologists were studying an unexpectedly high mortality in park elk. CWD prevalence had risen to 18%. Collaring studies revealed CWD was accelerating mortality, and models suggested the population would not persist beyond 40 years (could be wrong on the timeline). Lately, they have reduced the population and current sampling suggests the prevalence has fallen and may be stabilizing. They are currently trying to understand prevalence and mortality differences among sub-populations in the park. But as you note, much easier to implement strategies on a small, discrete population.

You can not control EHD.. You can partially control the midge that causes EHD, that's better then nothing and EHD has been proven to be very fatal.. Not much effort goes into helping there at all on the game and fishes side.

 

[Hunting Wife]

Y

You can not control EHD.. You can partially control the midge that causes EHD, that's better then nothing and EHD has been proven to be very fatal.. Not much effort goes into helping there at all on the game and fishes side.

Again, how does one do this? Because folks across two continents haven’t been able to do it.

 

[TheTone]

Again, how does one do this? Because folks across two continents haven’t been able to do it.

Exactly. How are state agencies supposed to control the weather and make it rain? I’d even argue baiting, thus congregating deer, could make ehd spread worse

 

[wct12]

Again, how does one do this? Because folks across two continents haven’t been able to do it.

Spraying around waterholes for the midge would be more productive at saving deer then baiting restrictions have been at saving deer from CWD.

Anyways, back to HB 1151.. Anyone want to take a crack at the questions posed in any of my previous questions. Specifically my first post?