Hunting Wife
Well-known member
Demanding science-based management while complaining about science-based management has been standard operating procedure since day one when it comes to CWD.
ND Game and Fish coming under fire for CWD Management
- Thread starter brocksw
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brocksw
Well-known member
I get it. It isn't hard to find an example that might cause one concern for some of the management decisions that are made throughout the country. I can understand why doubt or disagreement exists.
Things are....imperfect.
But here we are, questioning the basic mechanics of disease transmission as the fundamental error that wildlife professionals got completely wrong.
RealMuddyboots
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No I am not, just pointing out this natural mode of transmission occurs 24/7/365 as natural deer social behavior. Baiting is minuscule time frame of potential transmission while the normal social behavior is completely not discussed. Why?
brocksw
Well-known member
Obviously, it's not worth my time to parse everything out and cite individual works, since it appears you're not reading the contents of this thread (because it has been addressed). So, I would recommend reading the article below and then going and researching the many studies this article references. Have fun and good luck.
Chronic Wasting Disease and the Science in Support of the Ban on Baiting and Feeding Deer
Chronic Wasting Disease and the Science in support of the Ban on Baiting and Feeding Deer.Timothy R. Van Deelen Ph.D. Wisconsin DNR Research Summary Reliable science provides support for a ban of baiting and feeding of white-tailed deer to reduce disease risks for Chronic Wasting Disease (CWD). Peer
cwd-info.org
RealMuddyboots
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As well as I have read virtually every article on this. The exact same behavior exists on every food source where deer are congregated. Ag fields, acorn flats, et al ALL result in identical behavior.
I am a bit confused by your statement above. Don't bait pile congregate deer way, way more than ag fields and acorn flats? That is then NOT identical behavior. Having a dozen deer in a 40 acre field is not close to the same thing as having 4 deer eating off a bait pile within a few feet of each other.
Hunting Wife
Well-known member
If baiting did not concentrate animals and alter behavior, no one would do it, and certainly no one would be threatening to remove management authority from a state agency over it.
The best available science still disagrees with you. Do you want science-based management, or not?
When it comes to baiting and disease specifically, we have direct evidence that feeding has exacerbated tuberculosis and brucellosis in wild ungulates. Best management practices based on well-known epidemiological principles for those much better understood transmissible diseases is to stop feeding and baiting. Are you saying we should ignore that science when it comes to CWD?
brocksw
Well-known member
Apparently you failed to read the article I posted, or any of the studies it references.
"Garner (2001) monitored 160 radio-collared deer for 2 fall/winter periods in northern Michigan and documented their behavior over feeding sites using both telemetry and direct observations. He demonstrated that, relative to natural forage, supplemental feeding caused reduced home range sizes, increased overlap of home ranges in space and time and dramatic concentrations of activity around feeding sites"
"Garner (2001) demonstrated that baiting and feeding was associated with deer concentration, extensive face-to-face contacts, and increasing overlap of deer home ranges. White-tailed deer have contacts from social and grooming behaviors apart from contact over baiting and feeding sites (Marchinton and Hirth 1984) but social groups of whitetails tend to be small during most of the year (4-6 individuals, Hawkins and Klimstra 1970). Whitetail physiology and behavior are adapted to selective foraging on nutritious plants (Putman 1988). Moreover, social groups tend to exclude one another by using different areas or by using shared areas at different times (Mathews 1989, Porter et al. 1991). Concentration of deer activity over feeding sites increase both direct and indirect contact between groups by increasing home range and core area overlap and by increasing the amount of time that unrelated deer feed in close proximity to each other (Garner 2001)"
"Garner (2001) also demonstrated extensive home range overlap between a TB-positive deer and 15 other radio-collared deer in northern Michigan. Recent epidemiological research suggests that baiting and feeding of deer enabled the TB outbreak in Michigan to persist and spread and that declines in TB prevalence were associated with a ban on baiting and feeding (O’Brien et al. 2002)"
RealMuddyboots
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@brocksw:
"Moreover, social groups tend to exclude one another by using different areas or by using shared areas at different times (Mathews 1989, Porter et al. 1991). Concentration of deer activity over feeding sites increase both direct and indirect contact between groups by increasing home range and core area overlap and by increasing the amount of time that unrelated deer feed in close proximity to each other (Garner 2001)"
This study was Northern Michigan, low Ag concentration. I agree that feeding/baiting in non agricultural areas is problematic. But what about agricultural operations? In southern Michigan, very common to see 30-50 deer or more at times of obvious different social groups in same field same proximity to each other. Deer are drawn to these fields from considerable distances. Some fighting but also social interactions exhibiting the behavior discussed. They are also pawing and digging in same areas. I can't imagine pellet count. This is clearly opposite of what the authors saw in N MI.
So how would you characterize this potential risk? Do you consider this a risk at all? Honest question not being wise ass.
"Moreover, social groups tend to exclude one another by using different areas or by using shared areas at different times (Mathews 1989, Porter et al. 1991). Concentration of deer activity over feeding sites increase both direct and indirect contact between groups by increasing home range and core area overlap and by increasing the amount of time that unrelated deer feed in close proximity to each other (Garner 2001)"
This study was Northern Michigan, low Ag concentration. I agree that feeding/baiting in non agricultural areas is problematic. But what about agricultural operations? In southern Michigan, very common to see 30-50 deer or more at times of obvious different social groups in same field same proximity to each other. Deer are drawn to these fields from considerable distances. Some fighting but also social interactions exhibiting the behavior discussed. They are also pawing and digging in same areas. I can't imagine pellet count. This is clearly opposite of what the authors saw in N MI.
So how would you characterize this potential risk? Do you consider this a risk at all? Honest question not being wise ass.
brocksw
Well-known member
Same happens in ND, not uncommon to see a herd of a hundred or more in the winter months. That is absolutely a situation with increased risk of disease transmission and as I have stated multiple times, there is just about 0 we're going to do about it.
If a bait pile is let's say 10 feet square, and you put 300 lbs (little over 5 bushels) of corn on that spot. That is equivalent to condensing 1 acre, or 208'x208', of a harvested corn field down to a 10'x10' square. Thats condensing it by over 400 times.
Let's reverse engineer that and ask ourselves some questions. Let's cut out a 10'x10' square out of that harvested corn field. The only corn laying on the ground in that square is what did not get harvested.
How many deer, throughout the course of the fall would put their nose and mouth on the ground in our square and feed?
How many deer could that 10'x10' square support until the corn was gone?
How long could it support them?
What do the deer do when the corn is gone?
How long would deer continue to put their nose and mouth on the ground after the corn was gone?
Finally, which of our two 10'x10' squares will have more deer licking, sniffing, sneezing, pissing, and shitting on it throughout the year (Not a trick question)?
RealMuddyboots
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In agreement, thank you very much for your patience and detailed explanations.
NDGuy
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I am shocked by some of the heavy-handed opinions I am seeing on social media supporting HB 1151.
Brock Wahl if you feal it necessary to bash me on a public forum at least be man enough to put your name behind it. You have lost your mind with this. You were not in the conversation with the director and me, not even within earshot of it. Not once have I ever said I do not believe the science that there is CWD and surely didn't tell Jeb the research was wrong. The fact is, you have no idea what we talked about. You are just blowing smoke like always. It amazes me and organization like Back Country Hunters and Anglers would have you represent them when you can't even have a civil conversation. Sad deal young man, very sad.
Tomahawk
Well-known member
@Johnarman Now we are all curious, what did you talk about? What are your ideas for the best path forward here? This would be a great opportunity to say your piece to a large audience.
BlakeA
Well-known member
Nice of you to post for once after 6 years of lurking @Johnarman . Although it makes sense given you would have nothing in common with the vast majority of HuntTalk members. @brocksw has done more for conservation and public lands in his short time with BHA and others than most do their entire life. Anyone that knows him knows he is always putting public access, conservation, and the wildlife first and foremost. Unlike the overwhelming majority, especially those within the "industry"
. Good luck coming on here and trying to sway folks your direction, you have an uphill battle.brocksw
Well-known member
Hey John, welcome to hunttalk.
Could you screenshot and share the post where I "bash" you?
The director asked me to stop and talk to him before I left. On my way out of the building I stopped and visited with him and another gentleman from the G/F . Jeb asked me what more they have to do for me to believe them. My answer was, I believe you 100 percent. CWD is on the landscape and has been for a long time. However I didn't think that taking away a tool in a bowhunters tool box solved the problem. I told him I felt it was going to be an up hill battle because of these reasons.
1) Nobody is finding sick deer or dead deer in ND.
2) With their numbers showing only 70 positive in over 20 years and with all but two being killed by hunters.
3) It would be a lot easier for others to get behind their agenda, if there was actually any data showing baiting spreads CWD more than natural congregation and social behaviors of deer.
4) What a lot of hunter/landowners see is the 200-400 deer herded up in feedlots, haystack and other wintering areas so the thought of CWD being spread by throwing a little bait on the ground seemed a little nuts.
5) Hard for hunters to agree on no baiting when the G/F still does intercept feeding and puts in food plots.
6) This was voted on by the people around 12 years ago and 80 /20 in favor of baiting.
We also talked about the Meadowlark Initiative, which I was very interested in along with increasing habitat which we both thought was a key to a lot of our problems in ND.
I think there is some cutting edge information out there with humic acid and some other things that we could look at rather than just ban baiting.
In your post I quote " I was there until 10 PM that night. Team UOA Captain spent an hour in the hallway after the meeting telling Jeb Williams how all the research that's been done surrounding CWD is wrong, and he's right ... because he's a rancher. "
That is a blatant lie, which you admitted to me in our short conversation on the phone right before you told me to Bite It
I have learned over the past years it doesn't do any good to argue with others like yourself Brock however I would appreciate you not spreading lies and putting words my mouth. Have a great night.
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brocksw
Well-known member
Thank you.
For clarity, I did not admit that was a "blatant lie". I simply inferred that was your version and I'm entitled to mine. And then after you threatened to sue me (over the post you quoted), I said "bite me" and hung up, as my 12 yr old son was sitting next to me and I didn't want him to have to listen to you yell and threaten me any longer.
Anyway, thanks for clarifying.
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Blake I do not participate in forums, a matter of fact I cant remember the last time I was on here reading anything. I was notified by a friend about his comment. Brock may do good things which is great but he told a blatant lie about me and that is only reason I am on here. Thanks for your comment and have a great night.Nice of you to post for once after 6 years of lurking @Johnarman . Although it makes sense given you would have nothing in common with the vast majority of HuntTalk members. @brocksw has done more for conservation and public lands in his short time with BHA and others than most do their entire life. Anyone that knows him knows he is always putting public access, conservation, and the wildlife first and foremost. Unlike the overwhelming majority, especially those within the "industry"
