Losing_Sanity
Well-known member
No, I don't. Because I never win in one of those. But I'm also not letting someone insinuate I'm wrong in a subject that has no right or wrong.
We can agree to disagree...
Nathan foster’s website? Any opinions?
- Thread starter Wyohunt
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No, I don't. Because I never win in one of those. But I'm also not letting someone insinuate I'm wrong in a subject that has no right or wrong.
We can agree to disagree...
I have absolutely no idea how I insinuated you were wrong. I stated what I was doing for my own reasons. I stated two distinct facts
How you want to interpret that as to the risk it poses to you or your family is completely up to you. I even said as much. Now, go shoot something so your family doesn't go hungry.
mrjashu
Active member
I have read all of Nathan's books (except the most recent one which I think is more of a memoir) and consider him to be somewhat of an authority as his documented kill count is in the 1000s.
BUT....
You have to realize he's mostly approaching bullet terminal performance from a long range perspective.
That's really his focus. From that standpoint most of the mono-metal bullets aren't great performers. I've used (and will continue to use) Barnes bullets myself but you have to keep the impact velocity high to get the best performance. Nathan is looking for bullets that perform all the way down to 1800-1600fps impact velocity range.
I definitely recommend his books though, he's a very good writer and has a lot of experience to share. You just have to understand where he's coming from and treat his opinion (highly experienced though it may be) as just another data point to help you make you own decisions.
BUT....
You have to realize he's mostly approaching bullet terminal performance from a long range perspective.
That's really his focus. From that standpoint most of the mono-metal bullets aren't great performers. I've used (and will continue to use) Barnes bullets myself but you have to keep the impact velocity high to get the best performance. Nathan is looking for bullets that perform all the way down to 1800-1600fps impact velocity range.
I definitely recommend his books though, he's a very good writer and has a lot of experience to share. You just have to understand where he's coming from and treat his opinion (highly experienced though it may be) as just another data point to help you make you own decisions.
std7mag
Well-known member
You'll also note most of the game hunted is what is common to his area, (New Zealand)aka goats.
He's not regularly hunting 150lb plus whitetail, or 600lb plus elk.
Big boars with their shoulder shields are an entirely different thing too.
And like mrjashu said, his primary field is long range. How many of us are annealing the bullet jackets to get reliable expansion?
He's not regularly hunting 150lb plus whitetail, or 600lb plus elk.
Big boars with their shoulder shields are an entirely different thing too.
And like mrjashu said, his primary field is long range. How many of us are annealing the bullet jackets to get reliable expansion?
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longbow51
Guest
There has been no documentation of any lead poisoning from lead bullets.
I shoot copper (Barnes) because a friend of mine who kills multiple elk every year switched to it. And I haven't experienced the "long tracking" either. But, I don't shoot past 400 yards, and shot a .300 WinMag most of my hunting years, so with long distance and lower velocity maybe that might be a problem. Haven't yet heard of a Hammer failure. My guess is that most people willing to roll their own and pay a buck a piece for bullets don't miss many shots.
I shoot copper (Barnes) because a friend of mine who kills multiple elk every year switched to it. And I haven't experienced the "long tracking" either. But, I don't shoot past 400 yards, and shot a .300 WinMag most of my hunting years, so with long distance and lower velocity maybe that might be a problem. Haven't yet heard of a Hammer failure. My guess is that most people willing to roll their own and pay a buck a piece for bullets don't miss many shots.
noharleyyet
Well-known member
Bullets to tissue ain't exactly euthanization, but for me, hammers have been damn close...to plagiarize a well known 'decider' here, separating fly chit from pepper.
44hunter45
Well-known member
Ditto,
First, a little suck-up to @Big Fin-
Randy has been plain about HT not being a place to give the competition free column space and links. Mr. Foster is not so much in completion with Randy, but I am sensitive to having a prolonged discussion about TBR's content without the big man's blessing. Those are the rules to which I agreed when I signed up here on HT.
I'm going to throw this out there and I'm done. Dog pile if you want, I won't engage.
I do not use non-lead right now, but I am very interested in going that direction. It's hard to think about now when I have a lifetime supply of lead core bullets on the shelf in the man cave. The new calibers which go into the safe will be fueled by Hammer. (Maybe Steve should send Mr. Foster a butt-load of samples to play with.)
Regarding Mr. Foster -
I don't so much see the need to defend Mr. Foster, but I do have experience with his work.
Mr. Foster has nearly as much content out there as HT. It takes a while to digest it. One common theme in Nathan's work is knowing minimum and maximum designed performance velocity window for your chosen bullet and where those velocities are in the flight path of your particular load. If you know those velocities for your monolithic, his content is still useful in helping assure your bullet does what it was designed to do.
Nathan's discussions of what hydrostatic shock is and does might challenge some folks assumptions on the subject. Particularly what rifles and loads are capable of producing it.
This makes energy transfer and terminal performance key to his content. This is the foundation of his "Fast Kill" vs "Slow Kill" discussions. The terms as he uses them have specific meanings.
In other articles, he praises the Woodleigh hydro-solid monolithic design and explains at length why it works even though it is not designed to fragment. His article titled,
"Homogeneous copper bullets can be inhumane" cites instances where copper monolithics are the preferred bullet. I saw the article as a commentary on the lunacy of legislating bullet composition vs letting hunters make their own choice for their application.
That is the same message which you would expect here on HT. It is also the message of The Peregrine Fund and The North American Non-Lead Partnership. Rather than passing restrictive laws, inform the hunter and let them decide.. When that descends into arguments over whose science is valid, debate is pointless, just go home.
If fact, a lot of the emotion in posts here seems to be about the idea that someone would impose their opinion of all copper bullets on us. Who can use "Noli Me Tangere" and "Freedom!" in the same sentence?
I'm interested that his content on copper bullets has become a trigger point and no one has commented on the gory post mortem pictures he posts in a hypersensitive social media world.
The varmint grenade has been my coyote bullet for a long time. It is a no lead option not that you are eating coyotes. I shoot the 62gr in my 243
How are they on fur?
Well if that’s the case then maybe we should go back to lead paint and gasoline And lead shot for waterfowl. My dad is a PhD biochemist and I am pretty sure that his description of lead poisoning is factual. And yes there have been studies of lead poisoning in birds of prey and it is apparently a pretty common problem around hunting season. I once found a live hen mallard with lead poisoning so I’m pretty sure it’s not a myth. Simply put, lead is a toxic metal and the effects of lead poisoning are permanent. I am More concerned about the health of my grandkids than I am about making a political statement.
devon deer
Well-known member
This a real hot potato in England at the moment, as some might know we hunt to eat, but also can sell our venison to game dealers who sell onto the public/supermarkets.
My local dealer is struggling at the moment as all dealers are, but he has found an outlet, only thing is they have demanded non toxic, so copper only.
I only have a .243 at the moment, (.308 should be with me soon) so today I will be mostly reloading copper!
I will see how it goes, but they are 80 grain and pushed at around 3150'fps.
I will keep you updated on how they group, and how they are on deer.
@Big Ears is about to do the same for his 6.5x55 and @leec270 has been shooting them for years and has shot hundreds of deer with copper so he will give some opinion.
Denmark has just banned lead completely.
Cheers
Richard
My local dealer is struggling at the moment as all dealers are, but he has found an outlet, only thing is they have demanded non toxic, so copper only.
I only have a .243 at the moment, (.308 should be with me soon) so today I will be mostly reloading copper!
I will see how it goes, but they are 80 grain and pushed at around 3150'fps.
I will keep you updated on how they group, and how they are on deer.
@Big Ears is about to do the same for his 6.5x55 and @leec270 has been shooting them for years and has shot hundreds of deer with copper so he will give some opinion.
Denmark has just banned lead completely.
Cheers
Richard
Jasza
New member
- Joined
- Nov 14, 2020
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- 5
For the past 2 decades, my family has been hunting for the pot, and I was indoctrinated to believe that lead poisoning was just another environmental fad, we occasionally find bullet fragments in our venison mince (one fragment every 100 LB consumed!). The number of fragments depends on the care of the person who butchered the carcass.
I also do a lot of offshore kayak fishing and so am continually handling lead weights of various sizes, sometimes holding them in my mouth while preparing tackle. I determinedly thought lead was inert if swallowed and would pass right through, until till I read this article: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1278491/
Oh well, I guess I will need to start shooting copper or brass bullets. The good news is they are locally made in our country and more affordable than the imported jacketed bullets. Supply is more consistent. Any skilled machinist with a lathe can make them.
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longbow51
Guest
Sorry, I thought we were talking about humans, and in looking back, apparently everyone else was confused as well. There was a single small study (not in USA) where folks had increased lead levels (though still not at toxic levels), but they ate lead-shot birds way more than would be possible with today's limits. So, if we're talking about birds getting sick, perhaps a different story. Out of my realm of expertise.
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antelopedundee
Well-known member
grizzly63
Well-known member
i think the best post is the "Vikings Fan" questioning other peoples IQ's. Ha, ha, ha!
grizzly63
Well-known member
I appreciate Mr. Fosters contributions to evaluations of ammo and its effects on game animals.
What bullet weight/weights were you using when your 30-06 failed to bang/flop whitetail when using the ttsx? I'm asking because the 110 grain .30 cal ttsx has a rep for dropping deer instantly, whereas the 130 grain+ ttsx bullets don't.
EastTNHunter
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jun 13, 2018
- Messages
- 1,782
165s. I know that they were a conventional weight, and I’d thought about trying 130s, but they were what I had loaded for elk. The 165 NABs have given me bang flops most of the time
MS 9x56
Active member
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- Mar 9, 2022
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I have tried the all copper bullets and my issue with them was copper fouling in my barrel that degraded accuracy after only 20-30 rounds. I have seen a TSX dug out of a wild boar that had a petal bent into the hollow point that failed to open, even so the boar was dead. My preference is more to round nose cup and core bullets at more sedate velocities as I hunt in thick cover where a long shot is 75-100 yards. I have witnessed a lot of meat loss from blood shot meat from friends whitetails who use TTSX bullets. Being a meat hunter I stick with what works for me and so should you, despite what any so called experts may tell you. In my estimation it is always wise to take what you read with a grain of salt while applying the sniff test.
