MT's I-143 under attack

[Washington Hunter]

Tom,
I'm a hunter and to me a guy who pays big money to shoot an elk inside a fence is only doing it because he likes to kill. I can't imagine non-hunters seeing it any differently. What else could they possibly be getting out of the experience? Now I realize you're in Texas and it's different there. The subject here is elk in Montana, so this has nothing to do with high fence hunting in Texas. When a hunter kills an animal on a real hunt, in the real outdoors, I don't see how that would perpetuate the idea that hunters only like to kill. But a tame animal inside a fence that is no real challenge and takes no real hunting skill would.

Paul, I haven't read anything by Buzz that shows he has an "all or nothing mentality." So he voted for initiative 143, apparently so did the majority of people in Montana. I'm glad to see an initiative doing the right thing for once, unlike the initiatives in this state such as the one that banned hunting bears and cats with hounds, or bait. I-143 was a victory for hunters. It's about time the legal system works for us instead of against us.

 

[BuzzH]

Another thing Tom and a few others fail to realize is that the enclosures where the elk where being killed in Montana were very small. There was not, and is not, a single elk farm in Montana where I couldnt kill every elk on a given farm within 1/2 a day (including the largest one in the state near Darby).

I'd venture most elk on the game farms in Montana could be wiped out in an hour of shooting, most of that time would be spent reloading and lighting Marlboro's off a hot barrel.

It was not even close to hunting, not even by Texas game farm standards.

 

[Michaelr]

Buzz, we don't agree on much, but on this one you are absofrigginlutly right!!!
Shooting tame elk is a joke, a black eye for hunting, and in my book a disgrace.
I would sooner shoot dogs at the local shelter. about the same thing.

 

[ELKCHSR]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Elkchsr, I dont have to change anyones mind, game farms are done in MT.

I win, you whine. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I don't see me whining any where. And again I ask, what sort of prize have you won?!?!?!
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Your all or nothing mentality is why common sense rarely wins out. No wolves or too many wolves. Cut every tree down or lock up the forest. Every dog in this race has made valid points. Your narrow mind will not let you see other peoples views. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Good post!!!
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> sure, anything you say. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well at least we have found some thing we can all agree on...LOL..

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Paul, I haven't read anything by Buzz that shows he has an "all or nothing mentality." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You must not honestly read much that he has actually written then!!!

 

[The Hedgehog]

Michaealr.. are you saying we SHOULDN'T be allowed to shoot dogs at a local shelter for a fee?? WHY NOT? I mean, before you know it, they will want your guns and other hunting rights.. Just ask Tom and DanR.

Personally, I'm all for shooting those dogs at the local shelter.. That sounds like fun. I bet you can do something like that in Texas.

Really though, what a great way to manage these overflowing no-kill shelters. ..just get a few Texans to come in an charge them for a captive labrador or poodle hunt.

 

[Tom]

Greenhorn, ha ha. The dog thing won't work, not in Texas, not with the people I know.

Buzz, you just went and killed a late season cow and had it butchered up faster than most butcher shops do a cow around here. At least you shot it and did it yourself and apparently enjoyed the experience.

Get it Washington Hunter? There's more to it than enjoying the kill when you do it all yourself.

Some of you anti-guys seem somewhat emotionally blinded on this issue, but that's ok, nobody is perfect.

 

[Washington Hunter]

Yes Tom I do get it. Sounds like maybe you are beginning to get it also?

 

[Lostagain]

Buzz"Another thing Tom and a few others fail to realize is that the enclosures where the elk where being killed in Montana were very small. There was not, and is not, a single elk farm in Montana where I couldnt kill every elk on a given farm within 1/2 a day (including the largest one in the state near Darby)."
You're too late, those elk are gone, and now its a subdivision. Lee Foss is the realtor for those 40s(Ithink).

 

[BuzzH]

LA, I know that, heard from a buddy who lives in Hamilton.

I still could have wacked every elk on that place in a half day.

 

[Tom]

Please don't speak for me just read what I say, don't make up stuff about what you think I realize or don't realize.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 02-04-2003 16:58: Message edited by: Tom ]</font>

 

[BuzzH]

Yeah, because lots of us realize, that unless Tom realizes, then nobody realizes, by the way, who's on second?

 

[Lostagain]

Buzz=== one of your arguments was the "people" had voted and that shouldn't be overturned. Now where's your outrage at Washington state.....
http://www.huntandlodge.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=31&t=001261

Or is someone else's tradition not of any concern of yours?

 

[Washington Hunter]

Moosie it's wrong because elk are meant to be wild, not fenced in and then shot by some guy with a fat ass and too much money.

 

[danr55]

WH, Let's carry that logic one step further.

"Moosie it's wrong because elk are meant to be wild, not shot." Your words. Not mine.

How does that logic grab you? It is the same basis in truth. Maybe not yours, but there are a lot of people out there who feel that way. Why are they wrong and you right? Because you or Buzz or Greenjeans say so? No hardly!

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 02-07-2003 06:17: Message edited by: danr55 ]</font>

 

[MarlandS]

The same could be said about ANY domesticated animal. They all started out wild and there are still members of the species / family / genus which are wild.

 

[280]

"And, I'll say it loud "MY NAME IS OSCAR AND I'VE HUNTED GAME RANCHES, AND I WILL DO SO IN THE FUTURE AGAIN" !!! "


totally what I expected, doesn`t surprise me in the least!

 

[danr55]

280, is it genetic with you or is it something in the water up there that makes you pucker like that??

 

[280]

no not the water, its dumb ass questions

 

[The Hedgehog]

I think game farms are gay and I definately oppose them in MT, they are a big negative for a number of reasons.

I voted for it, but I knew at the time, it wasn't the best solution. But hey, when you have the opportunity to kick something you don't like, take advantage of it.

I think HB379 will pass and I143 will be reversed. Hopefully next time, the emotions and "ethics" aspects will be removed and the focus will be the financial, putting complete liability and ownership on the industry, as opposed to the FWP, and the real sportsmen and women of the state, who want the focus to be wildlife mgt, not game farm mgt. I think FWP has the be the group controlling this, but they need to be entirely funded by the industry some way or another.

Bottom line with that is... if they have to pay thier own bills, my guess is they won't be in business long. It's really a shame that there is any market at all for canned elk hunts in a state like MT.

 

[BuzzH]

Moosie, I hold the same beliefs as WH.

Elk arent meant to be in pens, and shooting them in one is plain wrong. I would guess even you would realize that theres a huge difference in a corsican ram and an elk. If you dont see the difference...then the discussion is over.

Thats really one of the main reasons why I voted the elk farms out of Montana, it just aint right, In my humble, but well-informed, opinion. By the way it wasnt "the peoples money" that funded the admin. of those elk farms, it was "sportsmens license fees".

I also disagree completely with you on ethics. Ethics are all the individual hunter has to make hunting what it is.

What I mean is, there are people who dont see anything wrong with wounding 2-3 animals for ever one they kill. They'll shoot way beyond their limitations, they'll do anything it takes to kill an animal, whether that means running them down on ATV's, using two-way radios, cutting people off on game, you name it. Even poachers have justified what they do, their set of ethics are just lowered. Arent game laws nothing more than just a set of ethics agreed on by a majority of hunters of a state? Hell yes they are! Thats why you can bait bears in some states, like ID, and you cant in MT. It wasnt the PETA or Fund for animals people that chose the no-baiting law in MT, it was sportsmen.

I know you said dont bring poachers into it, but isnt the end result the same? The animal is dead, and someone killed it. All you're doing by telling them they cant spotlight, run them down on ATV's, shoot them with grenade launchers, shoot them with poison arrows, etc. etc. etc. IS IMPOSING YOUR SET OF ETHICS ON THEM. That makes you NO different than ME, Greenhorn, or WH for holding the view (ethics) that hunting elk on a gamefarm is wrong.

I'll agree that not everyones ethics are the same...so be it.

By the way, if hunting on game farms was all its cracked up to be, I wouldnt think you'd have to defend it so vigoursly.

I think its also pretty apparent that there is a big difference, or this discussion would not be taking place.