I seriously doubt it. mtmuley
I seriously doubt it. mtmuley
375H&H
Well-known member
Would an antler point restriction be better than changing a general unit to LE? Or just simply moving the season to October? October seasons in the mountains are tough, but you will get more big bucks to survive. On the plains, I don't think an October hunt does much to help personally.
375H&H
Well-known member
Please explain. While they are not perfect, they do help.
BuzzH
Well-known member
Talk to your local biologist as well as read some science on APR's. They aren't necessarily a bad thing short term, but long-term they just don't work for a wide variety of reasons.
Most all the WY bio's I have talked with, and its a bunch, all say the same thing.
I think your point about holding seasons in October would be wayyy more effective. But, good luck in Montana, you ask anyone to give up one day of hunting in their 11 week season, and their hair is on fire.
375H&H
Well-known member
What I would pay to have a general season in Wyoming be in November...
BuzzH
Well-known member
There are general seasons in Wyoming in November...
If you want to get a glimpse of what its like, (sounds like you're willing to pay for the opportunity) buy a Montana tag and get after it.
Have hunted deer there every year since 1980, and 11 weeks of deer hunting, including through the rut, takes its toll.
I'm glad Wyoming is not mis-managed like Montana.
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375H&H
Well-known member
Yes I know, in the black hills. And I know what it's like in Montana, I go to Colstrip all the time for work.
No, I'm not buying a montana tag, and I know what rut hunting does...I thought you would get the point I was trying to make but apparently not. Now people see why I have to spell everything out.
Oh and it is debatable if Wyoming actually does very well with its mule deer hunting as the number 1 region is general for residents and starts in September... kinda has the effect of a rut hunt sometimes.
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Particularly given the struggles mule deer are facing, and then throw in ever increasing technology and equipment capability on top of it. The mule deer hunters of 40 years ago are a far cry from what's out there today. I'm not saying that's bad, but it's reality.
They are a short term band aid fix and that's about it. If you are considering APR as an alternative, then it is already obvious it is an attempt to alleviate hunting pressure in an over exploited unit and/or region. APRs do one thing well, and that's keep the younger age class deer from getting shot right away. That's not a guarantee though, as illegal harvest can and does significantly affect the recruitment of young bucks.
Over time, APRs will place a much higher degree of pressure on older age class animals because people are forced to focus on those. So, in essence, you are hammering the older age class and protecting the younger age class. That really doesn't do anything good for maintaining a health age structure of bucks in a herd. It skews it very disproportionately towards the yearling and possibly 2 year old age class, which in turn can have a very negative affect on the breeding dynamics and timing within the deer herd.
I have witnessed units (open desert terrain) where nearly EVERY legal buck is harvested during the season in APR units. That is over exploitation at its finest, and obviously there are varying degrees of it. However, it is a certainty the deer herd would be much better served by creating other means of limiting exploitation and harvest, such as a shorter season, limited entry permit hunting, limited access, or any combination thereof. By doing this the harvest is more evenly distributed across age classes, thereby alleviating the issues of breeding dynamics, timing, and selective pressure on upper (all things relative) age classes.
There is lots of science on this, but there is a brief synopsis of the cons of APR management.
antlerradar
Well-known member
JLS is mostly right. I would add that the pressure doesn't just fall on older deer. IF hunters are forced to shoot 4 point Deer that have genetics for 4 points will be shot at a young age and deer with lesser genetics will live to be old.
The reason MT has a hard time growing top end Bucks is not because we shoot too many two and three points but because we with all are opportunity have the freedom to be selective. The result is we shoot nearly all the nice bucks and those are the deer that could be big in a year or two.
The reason MT has a hard time growing top end Bucks is not because we shoot too many two and three points but because we with all are opportunity have the freedom to be selective. The result is we shoot nearly all the nice bucks and those are the deer that could be big in a year or two.
Eric Albus
Well-known member
- Joined
- May 24, 2012
- Messages
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Buzz, once again you will be surprised, we agree. 5 week rut encompassing mule deer hunting is insane.
Someone mentioned guys wanting to see LE returned to general season at tentative meetings. I have seen the same type of thing, shills who are there to make a little noise in the Dept.'s favor.
Most hunters worry to much about the genetics and that shooting all the 4 point bucks is going to ruin the gene pool...if it were that way NE MT would have run out of 4 pts. about 20 years ago. The doe is who is packing most of the water when it comes to antler production, as much as 80% is determined by the mother of the buck deer as to what kind of set of antlers he will produce(according to several high fence deer breeders I have spoken with). So we need not worry much about the gene pool and over harvesting of buck deer...from a genetic standpoint.
APR's mostly don't work, LE permit areas displace to many hunters....a conundrum, so do we continue to sit on our hands? We as sportsmen and conservation minded individuals need to work together to find enough common ground to go forward to this Dept. and demand our resource be managed biologically. Social management be damned, special interest management be damned as well. Manage the resource, and everything else will sort itself out.
Someone mentioned guys wanting to see LE returned to general season at tentative meetings. I have seen the same type of thing, shills who are there to make a little noise in the Dept.'s favor.
Most hunters worry to much about the genetics and that shooting all the 4 point bucks is going to ruin the gene pool...if it were that way NE MT would have run out of 4 pts. about 20 years ago. The doe is who is packing most of the water when it comes to antler production, as much as 80% is determined by the mother of the buck deer as to what kind of set of antlers he will produce(according to several high fence deer breeders I have spoken with). So we need not worry much about the gene pool and over harvesting of buck deer...from a genetic standpoint.
APR's mostly don't work, LE permit areas displace to many hunters....a conundrum, so do we continue to sit on our hands? We as sportsmen and conservation minded individuals need to work together to find enough common ground to go forward to this Dept. and demand our resource be managed biologically. Social management be damned, special interest management be damned as well. Manage the resource, and everything else will sort itself out.
joelweb
Well-known member
It should be noted that 93 percent of the current harvest in HD 103 is focused on whitetails. Making that particular HD a mule deer permit area shouldn't have a significant effect on overall opportunity. It might take some of the application pressure off of the Region 2 trophy zones, as region 1 doesn't currently have a true limited entry mule deer area.
shoots-straight
Well-known member
Thanks for the well thought out response Eric. Back in 1995 we "Rooters" went through the very thing your talking about. At the end of the day we decided to go LE. We have heard complaints from hunters in other areas of the displacement issue but really the impacts are small. People just can't get over the fact that their not entitled to kill a forky mule deer every year where ever they want too.
In the Root there has been attempts to increase the opportunities but the public now likes the LE areas and stand up for them.
antlerradar
Well-known member
Eric. I agree with this. I was trying to point out that under APR The pressure is shifted form all deer to just four points. The result is that nearly all the 4 points are shot at two or three years of age. These are the deer with the genetics needed to make them big at age six. With APR or Montana's opportunity seasons they almost never make it to four years.
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shoots-straight
Well-known member
Belly, I really never started to go over the hill to hunt deer. Many Rooters didn't either. There were always guys that went east to hunt deer but I really don't think there was a big surge of displaced hunters.
I have only killed one mule deer sense going LE in the Root and that was this year. I killed whitetails. I really think the area displacement thing is overblown.
I doubt the 401 deer is an anomaly...
T
tjones
Guest
Thanks for the info Gerald.
Going to ask a question I already know the answer to.
Does anyone else find it curious that the requests we see for units to go to LE with the goals being better quality always come from hunters and not FWP?
Going to ask a question I already know the answer to.
Does anyone else find it curious that the requests we see for units to go to LE with the goals being better quality always come from hunters and not FWP?
belly-deep
Active member
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I see a lot more 4 county plates than prior to a good portion of region 2 becoming a draw. I suppose it could be something else causing the influx, but mule deer bucks seem to be cool species for the flat brimmed hat crowd. I grew up in western Montana, so I understand the original local crowd being fine with hunting whitetails because that is all my dad and grandfathers hunted. Elk was the only game animal worth traveling for in those days. Now it seems different.
belly-deep
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Did you ever get over your fear of grizzly bears and kill a goat?
Imagine if you could hunt goats every year. You’d have plenty of time to get used to sleeping alone in the woods.
