More fat-asses busted

[JoseCuervo]

Paul,

" <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Are you saying that because I understand the need for dams in todays world, <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Since I don't know the need for the lower Snake Dams, could you please explain to me the benefit these dams provide in today's world?

Remember, they are insignificant producers of power to BPA, they cost more to operate via the Army Corp of Engineers than the value you they provide to the Barge traffic, and they provide no Flood control.

Please let me know the value they provide in YOUR world???

 

[cjcj]

Hello Gunner, I find your statement that the dam`s on the lower snake "don`t" provide any flood control [curious] now i am not saying or pretending that i know anything about them, just trying to learn something. What was the "intended" purpose of these dams?

 

[1_pointer]

Paul- Yes I am aware that the land could be productive wildlife habitat. I'm just not for the interim sacrifice of land health to make a buck. It is also more susceptible to erosion without the trees, which 'could' lower productivity and opens up many acres for noxious weed invasion. As I said it was a generalization, which may have been overexagerated. I've never been there so don't know for certain. Yes it is nice that PC allows hunting. We agree more on this than we disagree, at least I hope so.

 

[JoseCuervo]

CJ,

The dams provide no Flood Control, as they are always kept at "full pool", as the water is kept up, so the barges can go thru. If you were to drain them down, and the Locks would no longer function.

And the purpose of these Lower Snake Dams? It is to extinct all the Wild Salmon and Steelhead in Idaho, as that is all they accomplish.

 

[BuzzH]

Paul, you seem to be full of questions.

You said, "Last winter you were bashing P. C. for their land stewardship practices. You made comments refering their properties looking like "moonscape". This year you are hunting on their properties. What gives? Why would you hunt on land with such poor habitat? Why would hunt on some timber companies land that cares so little for wildlife?"

Where to start on PC and their "stewardship".

Lets see, for starters they've sold off just about all their best winter range, anything of value for cabin or home sites is history...thanks PC for helping to stop urban sprawl.

Big-game does fantastic eating log homes, asphalt, and steel siding, while at the same time wasting energy running from the Californians pack of half-huskie/wolf hybrids all winter.

On to the timber side of things, something I have just a pinch of experience with. Since your so good at questions maybe you wouldnt mind answering a couple yourself. Tell me, is it a good idea or a bad idea to liquidate timber 10 times faster than you grow it? Is it a good idea to high-grade? Is it a good idea to enter stands before rotation age? Is it a good idea to plant trees in your clearcuts, or just let the crap thats left over provide the next tree "crop"?

For Christ sake, they dont have the first clue about forestry, let alone forest health.

Now on to wildlife...

Paul, how do you suppose massive clearcuts, like those found in the Gold Creek drainage NE of Missoula (Belmont Cr., Cow Cr., Black Mtn, etc. etc.) with several miles of road per section effects elk and mule deer? Maybe its just me, but last time I checked high road density, high-powered rifles, and clearcuts for miles arent exactly secure areas for elk and mule deer. Maybe in your experience its the right recipe for producing trophy bulls and bucks, but not in mine.

As to the area I was hunting whitetails, until the last 5-6 years of road closures, the hunting was tough, although I managed to kill good bucks even when all the roads were open. Whitetails are much more adaptable to the type of "proper management" that PC provides as well as hunter pressure. Further, where I hunt, theres a pretty nice mix of FS, State, and PC land. Its not hard to know where you're at, if its slicked, its PC.

But, the one point I agree with is that it is good of PC to allow hunting...even though its a public relations stunt, and a benefit to them so they dont have to patrol their property. If you believe PC is concerned about the welfare of wildlife, you've lost your mind. Granted, thats not what they care about, but, what bothers me is you trying to defend their actions in regards to wildlife, they have no concern for wildlife.

 

[BHR]

Buzz,

I'm not trying to defend Plum Creeks actions. I'm just trying to figure out why you would hunt on their land if it is as bad as you say.

Could Plum Creek do a better job managing their lands? Yes. Could they do a worse job? Yes. Does Plum Creek think short term when it comes to making a buck? Yes. Does the current enviroment on public land forest management give incentive for P. C. to think short term? Yes. Does the increased occurance of fire and bug disease, give P. C. short term incentives? Yes. Does the lumber that comes from P. C. lands provide a number of Montana families with a good living? Yes Should you be more appreciative that P. C. lets YOU on their land? Yes. Lots of complicated issues here Buzz. Don't just pick and chose What issue you want to use when promoting your agenda.

Back to topic. So far this year I have been hunting 4 miles back on a gated road closed to atvs. I have yet to see an atv, a track of an atv, or the whine of an atv engine. Maybe they are learning to follow the rules, in this area anyway.

Paul

 

[Ten Bears]

Just posted 3 more gate sign pictures from last weekend. The roads are open to ATV's, but there wasn't a sign in the snow of them (cept maybe the one in the back of my truck).

BHR, BUZZ & GRINNER will always be offended by people with differing opinions, outlooks, or thoughts. In their minds hypocrisy does not apply to them.

 

[BHR]

Gunner,

"And the purpose of these Lower Snake Dams? It is to extinct all the Wild Salmon and Steelhead in Idaho, as that is all they accomplish."

Comments like this one, and ones similar make you sound exactly like the Green Party candidate in the California election. You did see the support he received, even in California?

Paul

 

[BuzzH]

Ten bears, you have to be the thickest moron I've ever seen.

I dont give a good shit about you, you're atv, or your signs.

What I do care about is people following the law, and in the case I provided, the law was broken. End of story. ATV's are not allowed behind the gate where I turned in the 3 atvers. WTF is so hard for you to grasp about that situation? Are you saying that the gate was not closed yearlong to ATV's?

I'm heading back to MT to hunt the last ten days of their season. I'll get the pictures so you can have a heaping helping of crow. I've already provided the Missoulian article, but I'll also go down to the PC office and get a copy of their regulations and post them for you.

Maybe, just maybe, you'll then get it through your thick skull that the area in question was off limits to atv's and that they (atvers) didnt give a shit and broke the law.

Get it?

By the way, whats hypocritical about expecting people to obey the freaking law?

 

[Ten Bears]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> I don't know if you missed it or just egnored the part were I congradulated you on the report of them. If they were wrong they needed to be reported, well done. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are you really that cranially dense?

 

[BuzzH]

Ten bears, explain yourself or shut up.

Why am I a hypocrit over the gate issue/atv issue?

I've already stated many times that there are gated roads that are open to atv travel throughout the United States. Big deal, has no bearing on the case in question.

What are you trying to prove?

I'll remind you one more time that you stated, "if the gate was PC it was probably open to atv travel".

It isnt open and hasnt been for 6 years, and its a PC gate. Again, what is so tough about you admitting that?

I'll get you the proof you seem to need, despite repeated proof being shoved in your face already.

Oh, and $150 dollar fines all around...even though it wasnt really closed to atv's...

 

[Ten Bears]

BUZZ, you still can't grasp the probability portion of "probably" can you? Did I say all PC gates were open???? I believe you said ALL PC gates were closures.

Good fines, PROBABLY WEAK in comparison to the number of time that group PROBABLY made the same enterance UNreported.

 

[BuzzH]

Ten, Plum Creeks regulations state: "any gate, with or without a sign, whether open or not, IS A YEARLONG CLOSURE for motorized travel". Futher, "any road open to motorized travel, MUST have a sign stating it is specifically open to motorized travel".

I dont make the rules, I just obey them. In the case I provided, theres no probably about anything...thusly the tickets.

By the way, I never once said, "all PC lands are off limits to ATV's". You seem to think I did, find it and report back.

 

[Ten Bears]

My mistake in your wordings.
So, tell me, whats to keep antiATVers from removing the signs that designate a road as open??? I know of 3 persons that frequent here that would be suspect in just that kind of act.

 

[Doug]

Ok I've been following this post and I have a question......Do ATV's in Montana and Wyoming have to display a license plate? Now I'm not talking about a little registration sticker, I'm talking about a license plate with large numbers that can be easily seen. I've never seen an ATV license plate. Are you saying that you can read the numbers off a little registration sticker as an ATV drives past? That's pretty remarkable eyesight.

Doug

 

[BuzzH]

Doug, I think in WY they need to a plate, as I've seen several with plates.

Montana, I dont think they need plates.

I was standing by the gate when they drove around it, and watched them load their 4-wheelers in the back of trucks. Not sure about you, but my eyesight is good enough to read licence plates on a passenger vehicle.

 

[BHR]

"So, tell me, whats to keep antiATVers from removing the signs that designate a road as open??? I know of 3 persons that frequent here that would be suspect in just that kind of act."

Good point Ten. Unfortunately the way the rule is, if you are going to ride your atv on P. C. land in Montana, it would be in your best interest to call them ahead of time and ask them which of their roads are open to atv's. Remember, you are a guest on their land.

And there is also plenty of incidences where atv riders have ripped down signs restricting atv use, and then claim that there was no sign at the trailhead. It works both ways.

Unfortunately there are pieces of shit on both sides of this issue, messing it up for the majority who are reasonable.

Paul

 

[Ten Bears]

Paul, I know that all to well. I have never ridden any road that I knew to be closed, but I have entered on one road that was open, and upon exiting around another gate seen that the gate I exited from was CLOSED. I think it's a righthand/lefthand thing.

I have good contacts with the timber companies here, and will make sure I contact the local offices in MT before I go there to ride.