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Montana - Time to Shake it Up?

Visiting Hunter said:
Far from it. I said my experience lined up with fwp GW expectations. And now we're here.
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If we stay on the same path the opportunity that you enjoy will be leaving. I haven’t hunted as long as many of the guys on here but the decline I have seen from when I started is scary.
Gerald Martin said:
Practically a boomer…😄

Boomer- Anyone who has personally witnessed a decline in the quality and quantity of mule deer in MT and doesn’t think the status quo is acceptable.
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I’m a millennial boomer.
 
This is actually about entitlement. I don't care which generation you were accidentally born into, but people who think things are rosy with mule deer management in Mt and want the unsustainable management to continue, are the ones who think that they are entitled.

Support of the current management shows lack of experience or complete disregard for the resource, and therefor entitlement.
Mule deer hunting in MT has been deteriorating for decades with no restrictive action from FWP other than when heavy pressure has been applied, and they usually recommend against it. You simply cannot lose 1/2 of your mule deer and greatly increase hunting pressure, and not need to make serious adjustments.

I am in fact a boomer, but I would trade all of my remaining mule deer opportunity for real change in favor of the deer. If I could just see truly mature mule deer on the landscape, I would be happy with that.
 
tjones said:
Son, you have no clue what was done to get you what you hunt.

When was the last time you attended a FWP commission meeting, FWP scoping session, FWP season setting meeting, commented on seasons, or testified on wildlife issues at the MT Legislature?


Have you ever even spoken to a R3 bio?




Maybe that was too rude?
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Last one I went to wasn't for wildlife directly but for a gravel pit in seeley. Shot the biologist down as fast as they could.
 
MTTW said:
I am in fact a boomer, but I would trade all of my remaining mule deer opportunity for real change in favor of the deer. If I could just see truly mature mule deer on the landscape, I would be happy with that.
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I’m a gen Xer but share the exact sentiment.
 
There was a time when current management practices for opportunity were not harming the resource as acutely as they are today.

Current management practices have never been sustainable, but advances in technology and increased mobility of hunters to travel and hunt multiple locations every year have hastened the effects of current management policy.
 
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So it's really simple math.

x amount of hunters need Y deer population. so what we multiply X we need to do to Y.

In forty years, we have 3X the hunters and 1/2Y. To keep things moving along and everyone happy. 3X needs 3Y not1/2 Y but then who does Math anyway.

The state officials don't care as long as people buy the tag to play in a piss poor environment.

People don't get mad and get involved unless they lose opportunity. Well guess what?

The Department will not let more deer match the X factor so there you have it. Enjoy!

OK they might raise a few to pick up the populations that are really low compared to the "10 year average" but then in the next decade that average will be just that much lower and thus easier to keep the population seemingly going. Although we actually are in a never ending perpetual slide, as long as we're are within that 10 year range it's good to go timel.

Sorry I'm feeling a little bitter tonight.
 
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Visiting Hunter said:
I haven't hunted in region 7, but I did mention what regions I did hunt. My statement still stands true for all those regions. I saw great numbers this past season, both mule deer and whitetail. More whitetail in certain areas and more mule deer in certain areas. One spot in region 6 was completely overrun with people and I still would glass 20 muleys up within 2 hours, then a group of people would go chase a young buck down... I don't know, I'm not saying the argument is wrong or I don't agree with it making sense to manage more by region, but it surely is walking a fine line of taking opportunities away. I didn't have any issue finding a deer. If they are truly managing for opportunities like GW said, I had hundreds this last season. I chose not to harvest anything as we have enough elk to last. Also wasn't seeing a huge variation in age class. I saw some variation a couple nicer ones but far from old. but mainly the younger bucks and does. I live in region 3 and love hunting it. But I had time off to burn so I spent 3 weeks solid in regions 6 and 4.

After traveling and going over the old stomping grounds, my true only recommendation, and I support NR hunting. I don't really know how feasible it is, but region 3 where I hunt largely over the last 15-20 years, you may find a few NR throughout the season, but not hundreds. I always heard the frustrations from NR hunting. My only frustration is that you all cluster like your home states only have a few public or small public... montana is huge use it all... From my observation, the NR pound that section of the state. I stayed in Glasgow for a couple nights and the hotel was packed and 70-80 percent were NR. I don't know if the forums/online chatter make them think they are going to only find quality deer in the breaks or the area around it. Yes, we all know how famous it is. The NR guys have to spread out a bit more, use the whole state and not just constantly hound one section of the state. And maybe that's everyone maybe residents too as a resident I usually dont travel super far and hunt areas around home maybe you all travel alot more then me. Maybe the general is just to wide open for people to pick anywhere... The pressure out there was so much more than I was expecting. I was expecting a lot but not what it is. If we issue 17,000 NR tags, we can't have 10,000 NR in the same area of the state. Yes, I know that's skewed, I'm driving to work and don't have speices tags pulled up etc., but you get the gist. It's been a good solid 20 years since I've been back that way for a hunt. I visit family or fish, but haven't made it for a hunt in too long. But I was somewhat blown away that all the pressure for deer is concentrated on that side of the state. I just say spread out a little more and stop hounding that side of the state. Again, this is nothing for region 7 because I can't speak on something I haven't hunted. I have a brother-in-law who grew up in Miles City and said it has really gone to shit. But I haven't even been that far east in I can't even remember the last time, probably wrestling 20 some years ago. I just personally think it's a little more fun when the age class isn't all the same on the landscape. But his statement stood true to me. I had hundreds of opportunities at little guys land a few opportunities at some younger 4points. Just the overall numbers were satisfactory in my opinion. Again just from what I seen this last season. It's all pretty anecdotal. Just my observations. Driving to work so I apologize if something doesn't make sense.
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So if you were hunting somewhere that used to have a half million deer 10 year ago but now you saw 50,000 you would say “I saw a lot of deer!” Right? If you stay on the same trend line how many deer will there be in 10 years? 5000 right? Now compare the number 20 years ago to the 10 year future number, 5000 is still a lot of deer but in context with 20 years ago is it? Anecdotal observations unless put in context aren’t worth much. Did you do the same hunts 20 years ago? If so you might have some anecdotal observations that mean something. Otherwise…meh
 
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MTTW said:
This is actually about entitlement. I don't care which generation you were accidentally born into, but people who think things are rosy with mule deer management in Mt and want the unsustainable management to continue, are the ones who think that they are entitled.

Support of the current management shows lack of experience or complete disregard for the resource, and therefor entitlement.
Mule deer hunting in MT has been deteriorating for decades with no restrictive action from FWP other than when heavy pressure has been applied, and they usually recommend against it. You simply cannot lose 1/2 of your mule deer and greatly increase hunting pressure, and not need to make serious adjustments.

I am in fact a boomer, but I would trade all of my remaining mule deer opportunity for real change in favor of the deer. If I could just see truly mature mule deer on the landscape, I would be happy with that.
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So again mature (trophy) You can word fu@k it all you want. You propose this its just going to turn into a draw system for a early rifle and a rut hunt based on quotas. sure the state will reep some benefits from more tag sales and that's a bonus we need more money and wardens.
Gerald Martin said:
There was a time when current management practices for opportunity were not harming the resource as acutely as they are today.

Current management practices have never been sustainable, but advances in technology and increased mobility of hunters to travel and hunt multiple locations every year have hastened the effects of current management policy.
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I literally started, “I don’t necessarily disagree." But it's walking a fine line for me.

The way I’m taking this; separate regions are going to manage every unit individually, like other states. Okay, what’s that mean? Draws. You all are walking a fine line. Just stating, be careful what you wish for. That was straight from GW. And at this point, his perspective makes way better sense than anyone else’s I’ve had the fine pleasure of meeting here.

Yes, of course, I miss the 90s watching my uncles, grandpa, and dad get 180-190 deer consistently year after year. Steadily seeing the decline, GW and I talked about all that too. But his statement still stood true. He said being more creative helps. He got a nice 170-inch whitetail this last season on public land. Look, I go visit my family and relive a lot of those old bucks with them. I remember waiting to be old enough. Then when I go hunting, I’m gonna get a big one. Lol, yeah right. I’ve put in so much time looking for a true respectable muley. I just decided I guess I’ll play the NR game too. I’m far from the most educated person in this room. And that’s fine. You all want to act like I’m completely out of line for stating what I saw, sure, hound it in.

F@@k boys, I haven’t found a true monster in 10 years. Yes, of course, it was nice. But plain and simple, what GW said matched what I saw: numbers, not trophies. So yeah, maybe I’m far off. Maybe all the deer I saw were just down from Canada for the rut. Just wanted to sniff some booty and bounce back up north. I think Montana could handle it, provided it was dispersed better. A NR is gonna plan a trip over rut. They only have so many days. Do a little homework. Where are you gonna go? The breaks or out east somewhere. Glassing is great. Roads everywhere. What more could a guy ask for, right? Common sense. The state isn’t going to have a resource out east. No matter the season. If it continues with pressure being the same, even shorter seasons. Even take rut out of it. Okay, no rut hunt. Now NR have to come hunt earlier. Possibly stay a little longer, knowing it’s not the rut. The state is still going to issue all these tags. They need the money. Now you have the same pressure and problem associated. Just accumulated it into one month now. So a week or four months isn’t going to matter. We sell those tags to fund our department. Take away the general tag as it is, and likely it moves to a draw system to create more money or to bottom line raise the same received by the state selling tags. This isn’t just what mule deer need. It’s also what the department needs too. Money. So say the state was willing to issue even 2000 less just general tags for NR. That is 1.4 million in revenue loss. They are going to need to make the difference up in funding someway. Now have fun explaining that to old heads who gripe about a 20-dollar tag now. NR pay so we don’t have to. You all are saying no hunting rut. It isn’t going to matter with everything available at our disposal. People are much more effective and efficient than 20-30 years ago. So just shaving a month off isn’t going to do anything besides isolate all the pressure to one month now. I’d be willing to bet the harvest rates don’t drop as much as you all seem to think they would. I'm sure there's a dip. But I'm willing to bet that dip isn't as significant as you seem to think.
 
@Visiting Hunter I sat in that room with these guys and believe me that @MTTW doesnt want a pile of draw tags. None of us do we want changes to prevent that. There was a reason the room was filled with guys from across the state and not a couple guys from one area. But you’re probably right because I’m sure we all took a day to sit down because we don’t know what we are all seeing. Some of these guys had 2 full days of travel for that meeting. It probably never crossed there mind in all that time behind the windshield that maybe the deer are doing great and we are all wrong. I’m glad you found a pocket of deer somewhere I sure hope someone else doesn’t find them next November for your sake.
 
It is not hard to see where we are going if we do nothing to shake things up. Limited entry is working its way across the state from west to east. Every new limited unit puts more pressure on the remaining OTC units. How long until we reach a tipping point were every unit needs to be limited entry?
More and more MT residents taking management into their own hands and leasing private land because of the poor quality of hunting public. Long run opportunity management ends in commercialization of private land an tragedy of the commons on public. If we do nothing all but the poorest quality BM ranches will be consumed by commercialization and hunting public will be a setting the fence and hope kind of hunt.
Just look at how much " progress " we have made towards this in the last 20 years. Does anyone think that we are not going to continue if we do nothing?
 
rogerthat said:
So if you were hunting somewhere that used to have a half million deer 10 year ago but now you saw 50,000 you would say “I saw a lot of deer!” Right? If you stay on the same trend line how many deer will there be in 10 years? 5000 right? Now compare the number 20 years ago to the 10 year future number, 5000 is still a lot of deer but in context with 20 years ago is it? Anecdotal observations unless put in context aren’t worth much. Did you do the same hunts 20 years ago? If so you might have some anecdotal observations that mean something. Otherwise…meh
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raised on a ranch in region 4, and we explored in region 6 frequently. It's not like I didn't grow up and see there isnt close to the amount mulies or age class currently. That's why me and GW I was busting his balls about not letting any of them grow. Long story short remember.... Watched fields of deer on the drive to the ranch.. drive by the same ones today and there's maybe a dozen on a good day. I get it there's not 1000s to choose from anymore.
cgasner1 said:
@Visiting Hunter I sat in that room with these guys and believe me that @MTTW doesnt want a pile of draw tags. None of us do we want changes to prevent that. There was a reason the room was filled with guys from across the state and not a couple guys from one area. But you’re probably right because I’m sure we all took a day to sit down because we don’t know what we are all seeing. Some of these guys had 2 full days of travel for that meeting. It probably never crossed there mind in all that time behind the windshield that maybe the deer are doing great and we are all wrong. I’m glad you found a pocket of deer somewhere I sure hope someone else doesn’t find them next November for your sake.
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I'm not saying you guys don't care.. I just think your walking a fine line... take does off the table. I don't have that answer for you guys either. But from traveling last season biggest issue I saw is if the nr pressure doesn't get evenly distributed better over the state.. its all concentrated on that side. Besides mayb some elk hunters here. Thats what I got. It used to be a day hunt for my uncles to find a 170+. Trust me I hear how much the areas gone to hell. From my uncle and dad. I just think you are all walking on the line with this one. Personally. Maybe it's the old heads I grew up with in the back of my head too. Take something away gets pretty hard to get it back. Maybe I haven't evolved enough. Id rather think of it how do we add more and keep opportunities. And maybe that's idea is to far gone. But I sincerely think if nr would use the whole state it would help. We got deer all over. They are just after a certain hunt. And mayb that is what was referred to as a "easy opportunity" rutting mulies being dumb running the prairie sure... or maybe just maybe if half of everyone with tags didn't go there. Maybe if you harvest a deer in regions 7 6 4 etc you must havest from another district your next visit or if it was a mule deer gotta harvest a whitetail next year. Again I do not have the answer.

I wont be back for awhile. plans for this year in Idaho and planning something with my father in law to NZ for 2025. But that depends what pocket your referencing.. biggest one had alot of people too. It's not some hidey hole. Everyone with maps seen what I saw. It was packed in the area. To my point it don't matter If it's a month shorter. People are going to be very close to just as efficient. Maps.. roads.. glass. It's litterally a wet dream for hunters... east is just set up that way. So shave a month with the same amount of tags.. just puts more people and pressure in one month. they will still be going to the east.. and are going to be very close to as efficient as before. To my point I only needed 4 days to obtain 2 elk and 3 deer. Time has nothing to do with it if you want to be efficient. 30 or 60 days. Isnt going to matter. Just sounds like more concentrated pressure with the same amount of people cramming in during 1 month instead of 2. Imagine little malta and glasgow trying to accommodate the amount of people they do over a 2 month period vs cramming it all into 1 lol someone better open another hotel up there.
 
Visiting Hunter said:
raised on a ranch in region 4, and we explored in region 6 frequently. It's not like I didn't grow up and see there isnt close to the amount mulies or age class currently. That's why me and GW I was busting his balls about not letting any of them grow. Long story short remember.... Watched fields of deer on the drive to the ranch.. drive by the same ones today and there's maybe a dozen on a good day. I get it there's not 1000s to choose from anymore.

I'm not saying you guys don't care.. I just think your walking a fine line... take does off the table. I don't have that answer for you guys either. But from traveling last season biggest issue I saw is if the nr pressure doesn't get evenly distributed better over the state.. its all concentrated on that side. Besides mayb some elk hunters here. Thats what I got. It used to be a day hunt for my uncles to find a 170+. Trust me I hear how much the areas gone to hell. From my uncle and dad. I just think you are all walking on the line with this one. Personally. Maybe it's the old heads I grew up with in the back of my head too. Take something away gets pretty hard to get it back. Maybe I haven't evolved enough. Id rather think of it how do we add more and keep opportunities. And maybe that's idea is to far gone. But I sincerely think if nr would use the whole state it would help. We got deer all over. They are just after a certain hunt. And mayb that is what was referred to as a "easy opportunity" rutting mulies being dumb running the prairie sure... or maybe just maybe if half of everyone with tags didn't go there. Maybe if you harvest a deer in regions 7 6 4 etc you must havest from another district your next visit or if it was a mule deer gotta harvest a whitetail next year. Again I do not have the answer.

I wont be back for awhile. plans for this year in Idaho and planning something with my father in law to NZ for 2025. But that depends what pocket your referencing.. biggest one had alot of people too. It's not some hidey hole. Everyone with maps seen what I saw. It was packed in the area. To my point it don't matter If it's a month shorter. People are going to be very close to just as efficient. Maps.. roads.. glass. It's litterally a wet dream for hunters... east is just set up that way. So shave a month with the same amount of tags.. just puts more people and pressure in one month. they will still be going to the east.. and are going to be very close to as efficient as before. To my point I only needed 4 days to obtain 2 elk and 3 deer. Time has nothing to do with it if you want to be efficient. 30 or 60 days. Isnt going to matter. Just sounds like more concentrated pressure with the same amount of people cramming in during 1 month instead of 2. Imagine little malta and glasgow trying to accommodate the amount of people they do over a 2 month period vs cramming it all into 1 lol someone better open another hotel up there.
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Have you ever hunted mature mule deer in October? Going off your comments I would say nope. You don’t know what you don’t know I guess. You would do yourself well to soak up some knowledge from some of the folks on here. Years and years of experience in Montana and mule deer. Less talking more listening

Edit: to be clear I’m an opponent of limited entry. I’m an advocate for some concern and management changes addressing the current downward trend in mule deer statewide.
 
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