Montana - Time to Shake it Up?

[Deleted member 48080]

If Region 2 needs representation I'd be there.

 

[TrumpkinTheDwarf]

I feel like the 5 day window leans us to much towards a Colorado type system that no one would want. If I was coming over for a 5 day season would probably stagger hunts with my buddy and still be here 2 weeks between scouting and hunting 2 different 5 days seasons but at least only one gun is on the landscape I guess

Have you hunted CO recently? It's a damn sight better than MT, even with all the wailing about "crowding" and such.

 

[Ben Lamb]

If Region 2 needs representation I'd be there.

Here's the big old buck I was hoping for.

 

[bigsky2]

So,

Bringing this back around to major shake ups instead of just adjusting seasons for more mature bucks -

The idea of empowering the CAC's and creating more focus locally on what people want to see in terms of age structure and overall herd size is perfect. I think HT has a tendency to focus on the antler size for a variety of reasons, but I think that's a bit of a bubble. Most folks seem content with a forkie for the pot. I don't think that needs to go away, as it tends to bring in new hunters, helps breed the success that keeps people coming back and quite frankly, if that's their choice, then bowing to the elitism of 160" bucks can be a detriment to getting and keeping people involved in blood sports.

Losing that egalitarianism in the chase for mature bucks would be a misstep, IMO. @Randy11 also has a massively important point when it comes to moving to LE permits for mule deer in that it places that much more pressure on whitetail in areas of high public land (R1, R2, etc). What happens in R7 resonates in R1.

Mule deer are in trouble west-wide. That's not a FWP problem, it's a habitat issue. Conversion from natural habitat to developed land, massive increases in weeds like cheatgrass, etc, liberal harvest strategies and in some instances, other species outcompeting mule deer for forage.

Mucking around with seasons only addresses part of the problem. It's where folks tend to focus because they want to highlight their experiences and data points, but until we're looking at what's growing in the dirt, and how it's influencing every other part of the machine, I think we're looking at simply cutting that pie smaller.

The loss of MD Doe hunting on approximately 1/3 of the state was a huge wakeup call to a lot of people. As one FWP person in Helena said "That was a big slap across the face to the wildlife division."

Change can happen, but if we just fall back into the tired arguments of allocation and antler size, nothing will happen. Think broader & structural.

I'm working on finding a time to hold the HT/Outfitter meeting. We have a space offered up in Billings. I'm thinking either February or possibly March. @Eric Albus & @Big Shooter for outfitters and so far I've seen @antlerradar raise his hand. Anyone else want to be here? @cgasner1?

I’d be interested.

 

[cgasner1]

I’m in I would to listen to you guys that know what going on and hope a couple other people with a lot of knowledge show up

 

[peterk1234]

I’m in I would to listen to you guys that know what going on and hope a couple other people with a lot of knowledge show up

Same here.

 

[cowboy]

I'm working on finding a time to hold the HT/Outfitter meeting. We have a space offered up in Billings. I'm thinking either February or possibly March. @Eric Albus & @Big Shooter for outfitters and so far I've seen @antlerradar raise his hand. Anyone else want to be here? @cgasner1?

Would you anticipate it to be an open or closed meeting?????

 

[ismith]

Montana centric thread, I know, but...

You may be 100% correct in Montana, but that discussion is highly relevant for those of us who live in other places that haven't been "discovered" in the same way yet. It's not wasted at all if we can avoid some of the pitfalls Montana has encountered. I'm not necessarily endorsing any single viewpoint, but it's certainly worth thinking about.

Like where?

 

[woods89]

Like where?

We must be doing our job........

 

[rogerthat]

I apologize if this one has already been pitched been busy but @Eric Albus and @Big Shooter thoughts on October gen season, nr cap by regions, however if you’re going outfitted excluded from cap. Le or primitive weapon November season. I guess really not that different from Idaho

 

[rogerthat]

The loss of MD Doe hunting on approximately 1/3 of the state was a huge wakeup call to a lot of people. As one FWP person in Helena said "That was a big slap across the face to the wildlife division."

Yeah it was a strong cuff upside the head and they earned every Newton transferred to their craniums.

 

[DFS]

Mule deer are in trouble west-wide. That's not a FWP problem, it's a habitat issue. Conversion from natural habitat to developed land, massive increases in weeds like cheatgrass, etc, liberal harvest strategies and in some instances, other species outcompeting mule deer for forage

I don’t believe you should just write off the mule deer in the west. That needs to be addressed as well.

 

[antlerradar]

So,

Bringing this back around to major shake ups instead of just adjusting seasons for more mature bucks -

The idea of empowering the CAC's and creating more focus locally on what people want to see in terms of age structure and overall herd size is perfect. I think HT has a tendency to focus on the antler size for a variety of reasons, but I think that's a bit of a bubble. Most folks seem content with a forkie for the pot. I don't think that needs to go away, as it tends to bring in new hunters, helps breed the success that keeps people coming back and quite frankly, if that's their choice, then bowing to the elitism of 160" bucks can be a detriment to getting and keeping people involved in blood sports.

Losing that egalitarianism in the chase for mature bucks would be a misstep, IMO. @Randy11 also has a massively important point when it comes to moving to LE permits for mule deer in that it places that much more pressure on whitetail in areas of high public land (R1, R2, etc). What happens in R7 resonates in R1.

Mule deer are in trouble west-wide. That's not a FWP problem, it's a habitat issue. Conversion from natural habitat to developed land, massive increases in weeds like cheatgrass, etc, liberal harvest strategies and in some instances, other species outcompeting mule deer for forage.

Mucking around with seasons only addresses part of the problem. It's where folks tend to focus because they want to highlight their experiences and data points, but until we're looking at what's growing in the dirt, and how it's influencing every other part of the machine, I think we're looking at simply cutting that pie smaller.

The loss of MD Doe hunting on approximately 1/3 of the state was a huge wakeup call to a lot of people. As one FWP person in Helena said "That was a big slap across the face to the wildlife division."

Change can happen, but if we just fall back into the tired arguments of allocation and antler size, nothing will happen. Think broader & structural.

I'm working on finding a time to hold the HT/Outfitter meeting. We have a space offered up in Billings. I'm thinking either February or possibly March. @Eric Albus & @Big Shooter for outfitters and so far I've seen @antlerradar raise his hand. Anyone else want to be here? @cgasner1?

Have standards slipped that badly that a 160 buck is elite? You are 100% right though. There will be zero change if the goal is to grow more big bucks.

 

[stoep]

Would you anticipate it to be an open or closed meeting?????

I'd love to be there. Not sure I'd have as much to share but I'm interested in the process

 

[Big Shooter]

So,

Bringing this back around to major shake ups instead of just adjusting seasons for more mature bucks -

The idea of empowering the CAC's and creating more focus locally on what people want to see in terms of age structure and overall herd size is perfect. I think HT has a tendency to focus on the antler size for a variety of reasons, but I think that's a bit of a bubble. Most folks seem content with a forkie for the pot. I don't think that needs to go away, as it tends to bring in new hunters, helps breed the success that keeps people coming back and quite frankly, if that's their choice, then bowing to the elitism of 160" bucks can be a detriment to getting and keeping people involved in blood sports.

Losing that egalitarianism in the chase for mature bucks would be a misstep, IMO. @Randy11 also has a massively important point when it comes to moving to LE permits for mule deer in that it places that much more pressure on whitetail in areas of high public land (R1, R2, etc). What happens in R7 resonates in R1.

Mule deer are in trouble west-wide. That's not a FWP problem, it's a habitat issue. Conversion from natural habitat to developed land, massive increases in weeds like cheatgrass, etc, liberal harvest strategies and in some instances, other species outcompeting mule deer for forage.

Mucking around with seasons only addresses part of the problem. It's where folks tend to focus because they want to highlight their experiences and data points, but until we're looking at what's growing in the dirt, and how it's influencing every other part of the machine, I think we're looking at simply cutting that pie smaller.

The loss of MD Doe hunting on approximately 1/3 of the state was a huge wakeup call to a lot of people. As one FWP person in Helena said "That was a big slap across the face to the wildlife division."

Change can happen, but if we just fall back into the tired arguments of allocation and antler size, nothing will happen. Think broader & structural.

I'm working on finding a time to hold the HT/Outfitter meeting. We have a space offered up in Billings. I'm thinking either February or possibly March. @Eric Albus & @Big Shooter for outfitters and so far I've seen @antlerradar raise his hand. Anyone else want to be here? @cgasner1?

Looking forward to it! Let us know your thoughts about times and places. Lord only knows what might come out of this!

 

[8andcounting]

I don’t believe you should just write off the mule deer in the west. That needs to be addressed as well.

This. Mule deer need help statewide . I don’t think she should limit the days a NR can hunt . I do think NR tags need to be capped at 17,500. Not 17,501, 17,500. No more NR b tags no come home to hunt no more bs tags . 17,500 .

 

[8andcounting]

And no NR hunting shoulder seasons . Or the muzzleloader season

 

[Ben Lamb]

Here's who I have as being interested:
DIY Public Hunting Side:
R1: @Gerald Martin
R2: @Randy11
R3: @Big Fin
R4: @bigsky2
R5: @cgasner1
R6: @Schaaf
R7: @antlerradar

Expressed interest: @stoep, @bigsky2, @sclancy27
@MtEngineer

Who did I miss, and especially folks from R1,3,4. Regions 3 & 4 are arguably some of the most important for this species given the historical range and hunting history. R1 has a host of issues, but those folks need to be at the table as well since they're the largest group of displaced MT resident hunters and considering what the MD resource used to be like in the region.

For outfitters:

@Eric Albus, @Big Shooter. I think having a few outfitters who work in the western part of the state are needed as well.

I am also suggesting that Rob Arnaud and I be the moderators. Rob is well known and trusted in the outfitter circles, and I'm moderately known in the hunting circles.

The idea is to not have organizations represented at the table. They have the capacity to do this on their own and they already make their suggestions known. This is about putting Montanans together in room to discuss what they'd like to see in terms of overall mule deer management, address some shared concerns about season structure and possibly walk out with a better collaborative framework for which we can bring hunters, outfitters and landowners together to find better outcomes for mule deer.

Once we have a line up set, we can start a new thread that has ground rules, and we can refine the agenda down to what we feel we can reasonably accomplish in 1 day.

As far as being open to the public, I think the group needs to decide. If it is, then there needs to be a way to ensure that the conversation doesn't go sideways as people want to participate and lead the discussion away from a structured process. I do think that having some folks attend isn't a bad idea, and if we provide time for public comment at the end, as well as give folks a place to send their suggestions to us, then a public facing effort makes sense.

 

[Mtn-time]

View attachment 307111
I’d like to see this same chart for other regions. R6 NR pressure was fairly stable until about 2015. Looks to be about 20% of the Combo/Come Home to Hunt total.

It appears that over the period from 2011 - 2021 the number of residents hunting grew at a rate of 3.4% annually. Whereas, non-resident deer hunters grew at a rate of 35.9% annually. I Wonder if this trend in the data continues to present. I do not believe the mismanagement is within the department, but with our elected and/or appointed officials and those that guide them in their decision making process.

 

[bigsky2]

Here's who I have as being interested:
DIY Public Hunting Side:
R1: no one identified.
R2: @Randy11
R3: No one identified yet
R4: No one identified yet
R5: @cgasner1
R6: @Schaaf
R7: @antlerradar

Expressed interest: @stoep, @bigsky2, @sclancy27

Who did I miss, and especially folks from R1,3,4. Regions 3 & 4 are arguably some of the most important for this species given the historical range and hunting history. R1 has a host of issues, but those folks need to be at the table as well since they're the largest group of displaced MT resident hunters and considering what the MD resource used to be like in the region.

For outfitters:

@Eric Albus, @Big Shooter. I think having a few outfitters who work in the western part of the state are needed as well.

I am also suggesting that Rob Arnaud and I be the moderators. Rob is well known and trusted in the outfitter circles, and I'm moderately known in the hunting circles.

The idea is to not have organizations represented at the table. They have the capacity to do this on their own and they already make their suggestions known. This is about putting Montanans together in room to discuss what they'd like to see in terms of overall mule deer management, address some shared concerns about season structure and possibly walk out with a better collaborative framework for which we can bring hunters, outfitters and landowners together to find better outcomes for mule deer.

Once we have a line up set, we can start a new thread that has ground rules, and we can refine the agenda down to what we feel we can reasonably accomplish in 1 day.

As far as being open to the public, I think the group needs to decide. If it is, then there needs to be a way to ensure that the conversation doesn't go sideways as people want to participate and lead the discussion away from a structured process. I do think that having some folks attend isn't a bad idea, and if we provide time for public comment at the end, as well as give folks a place to send their suggestions to us, then a public facing effort makes sense.

I’m in R4. If the date works I’ll be there.