Montana mule deer rant

[BuzzH]

Why do you keep doing it? seriously. I'm asking myself the same question after this year's hunt. My conclusion is if I paid $20 for the tag, my "opportunity" was fine. As an NR, my perspective changed, mostly because I paid $700 for the tag, not even including all the ancillary costs. So from that perspective, the "opportunity" sucked. My solution will be to apply to other states for deer, despite the fact there are plenty complaining about those states' management policies as well. The option is to just hunt my new home state of Washington, where people have given up complaining because the hunting is so bad.


This is where I disagree with you and Buzz. The blame lies with the vast majority of Montana residents who don't ask for and demand better.

I haven't shot a mule deer in the place I hunt for over 30 years, haven't shot an elk there for over 10 years.

Why do I keep doing it? The whitetail hunting, that the MTFWP tried as hard as they could to destroy in mid 2000's, is still hanging on. I do it because if you stop participating, you stop caring. I do it because I have a family history of hunting there, including personally every single season since 1979. My family has ties to that country going back to the 1920's. We owned a cabin my Grandfather built there in 1947 for nearly 4 decades. I have 2 nephews that are now hunting there, 5 generations.

I have an attachment to the place, a place part of my ashes will be spread someday. That kind of attachment to a place is tough to abandon.

Its hard to just toss in the towel about a place like that. I don't know, I have thought about just saying to hell with it, and moving on. If I were worried about just filling tags, trophy potential, or even just better hunting I would have left for greener pastures a long time ago.

I guess maybe I'm under some kind of delusion that somebody other than me is seeing the same thing with total mismanagement. That there just HAS to be others that saw what it was, see's what the potential could be...and maybe has the fortitude to demand better.

Also, for guys like me that know that country better, or certainly as well, as anyone alive on planet earth, you can still find some good whitetail. Plus, with the beatdown it took at the hands of the MTFWP, lots of other people have stopped hunting there. I'm of the age and point in life, that I'd rather hunt a place with less game but more solitude than the other way around.

I really can't say much more than that...glutton for punishment I reckon.

 

[rogerthat]

Why do you keep doing it? seriously. I'm asking myself the same question after this year's hunt. My conclusion is if I paid $20 for the tag, my "opportunity" was fine. As an NR, my perspective changed, mostly because I paid $700 for the tag, not even including all the ancillary costs. So from that perspective, the "opportunity" sucked. My solution will be to apply to other states for deer, despite the fact there are plenty complaining about those states' management policies as well. The option is to just hunt my new home state of Washington, where people have given up complaining because the hunting is so bad.


This is where I disagree with you and Buzz. The blame lies with the vast majority of Montana residents who don't ask for and demand better.

I’m not familiar with Washington deer hunting. Why is it so poor? Just too many tags? Can’t get one?

 

[375H&H]

I’m not familiar with Washington deer hunting. Why is it so poor? Just too many tags? Can’t get one?

Having grown up in Washington and still hunt there I will thrown in some reasons.

Out of control predators, too much hunting pressure, reduction in logging, urban sprawl, good tags are extremely hard to draw, and wildlife managed not by a state organization but rather by people who cannot stomach an animal being killed for sport. Montana is still better than Washington, no question. Hell half the hunting you can do in Montana you can’t even do in Washington anymore.

 

[JT88]

Out of control predators, too much hunting pressure, reduction in logging, urban sprawl, good tags are extremely hard to draw, and wildlife managed not by a state organization but rather by people who cannot stomach an animal being killed for sport. Montana is still better than Washington, no question. Hell half the hunting you can do in Montana you can’t even do in Washington anymore.

Some of the things you mentioned here are exactly what some of us are trying to prevent from happening in Montana

 

[Irrelevant]

Having grown up in Washington and still hunt there I will thrown in some reasons.

Out of control predators, too much hunting pressure, reduction in logging, urban sprawl, good tags are extremely hard to draw, and wildlife managed not by a state organization but rather by people who cannot stomach an animal being killed for sport. Montana is still better than Washington, no question. Hell half the hunting you can do in Montana you can’t even do in Washington anymore.

I get it, you hate WA, but you're grossly exaggerating to make a point.

How many bear tags can you get in MT? Two OTC in WA.
Same rules on coyotes.
Both have cougar quota systems.
Reduction in logging may have some effect in some places, but the east side has had plenty of fire disturbance, and the west side is dominated by private timber, and they sure as heck haven't slowed down their cutting.

WA main issues are habitat development/fragmentation, too many hunters, and excessive recreation in the summer.

 

[375H&H]

I get it, you hate WA, but you're grossly exaggerating to make a point.

How many bear tags can you get in MT? Two OTC in WA.
Same rules on coyotes.
Both have cougar quota systems.
Reduction in logging may have some effect in some places, but the east side has had plenty of fire disturbance, and the west side is dominated by private timber, and they sure as heck haven't slowed down their cutting.

WA main issues are habitat development/fragmentation, too many hunters, and excessive recreation in the summer.

Not to derail this thread entirely but I actually don’t hate Washington, I just don’t want to see any other state turn into it in regards to hunting opportunities/management. Not to sound like Buzz but my family has lived in Pend Oreille county for over 110 years and many of the fun activities we used to do in the outdoors are gone or damn near.

Cougar quota means nothing since you can’t hound hunt in Washington, so yea they are out of control.

Plenty of national forest on the west side that has slowed logging: Gifford Pinchot, Mt Baker/Snoqualmie, Olympic national forest to name a few. They are not cutting as much as 20-30 years ago and there is a direct correlation between clearcuts and quality of deer/elk etc habitat (I am sure you know this). Some very large chunks of NE Washington have very little cutting done on them anymore and the wildlife has suffered. I am talking the northern parts of Steven’s and Pend Oreille counties.

Either way, I have a pile of moose, sheep, and goat points in Washington that every year seem like a better idea to burn them. So I still like Washington a little.

Sorry, Washington issues are worthy of a whole ‘nother thread.

 

[Irrelevant]

Sorry, Washington issues are worthy of a whole ‘nother thread.

They are.

 

[SAJ-99]

I’m not familiar with Washington deer hunting. Why is it so poor? Just too many tags? Can’t get one?

I have only been here about 15 months. I have seen less than 12 deer over that time. 8 of them have been in the city limits. There also isn't as much public land on the east side of the state. So you have to work to find good spots and you can be sure others have found the same spot. So far, what I have seen in comparison to Montana isn't even close. Same with Wyoming.

To stay on topic, this is part of Montana's problem. It still seems great relative to a lot of hunters from other states.

 

[kwyeewyk]

I’m not familiar with Washington deer hunting. Why is it so poor? Just too many tags? Can’t get one?

IMO, while there's a lot of factors as mentioned by others for the problems in both MT and WA, the most important is lack of limiting hunter numbers/unlimited OTC tags. Unfortunately for MT, that lack of limitation is also accompanied with 12 weeks of hunting for any deer in most of the state. WA at least limits rifle to 11 days with a few late season rifle tags, and mostly 3 pt+ APR. Not advocating for APRs in MT by any means, but there has to be some limitations, when a truck drives by about every ten minutes of legal hours on about every road in the GD state and 90%+ of those trucks have multiple tags just waiting to blast any deer, it severely changes animal behavior and distribution. The flocking to private I saw in MT occurs on a scale I've never seen in WA, or anywhere.

 

[FI460]

I have only been here about 15 months. I have seen less than 12 deer over that time. 8 of them have been in the city limits. There also isn't as much public land on the east side of the state. So you have to work to find good spots and you can be sure others have found the same spot. So far, what I have seen in comparison to Montana isn't even close. Same with Wyoming.

To stay on topic, this is part of Montana's problem. It still seems great relative to a lot of hunters from other states.

I think this is what draws me to this discussion. I've never hunted Montana, but that is the general perception I get. It's true that those bucks posted earlier aren't huge bucks, and certainly not big bucks like you legacy Montana guys are used to seeing, but all of them would be pretty darn good Oregon bucks.

Likely those of us on the other side have some hindsight to offer Montanans. I feel like the Oregon response to mule deer decline has been too little too late.

 

[Irrelevant]

I think this is what draws me to this discussion. I've never hunted Montana, but that is the general perception I get. It's true that those bucks posted earlier aren't huge bucks, and certainly not big bucks like you legacy Montana guys are used to seeing, but all of them would be pretty darn good Oregon bucks.

Likely those of us on the other side have some hindsight to offer Montanans. I feel like the Oregon response to mule deer decline has been too little too late.

Agree. All of those 140-150" mule deer are OIL bucks in WA for the vast majority of hunters. I know a few that seem to defy the odds, but I bet in a State of 9 mil, you could count all those guys on both your hands. And our crappy hunting absolutely does impact MT, it has the easiest regs to understand, the most accommodating season, a it has some deer. Everyone I know that hunts MT does it to shoot a deer, something you really don't get an opportunity to do in WA.

 

[SAJ-99]

Agree. All of those 140-150" mule deer are OIL bucks in WA for the vast majority of hunters. I know a few that seem to defy the odds, but I bet in a State of 9 mil, you could count all those guys on both your hands. And our crappy hunting absolutely does impact MT, it has the easiest regs to understand, the most accommodating season, a it has some deer. Everyone I know that hunts MT does it to shoot a deer, something you really don't get an opportunity to do in WA.

What I tend to avoid is blaming some "liberal" or "anti-hunting" culture for the decline. The problem here in WA, and probably Oregon, is the general expansion of civilization and resulting interruption of migration corridors and disappearance of quality habitat. Montana hunters should take note. If they don't elect to make some sacrifices now, the opportunity to make those sacrifices later and it have a positive effect might not be there.

 

[375H&H]

Agree. All of those 140-150" mule deer are OIL bucks in WA for the vast majority of hunters. I know a few that seem to defy the odds, but I bet in a State of 9 mil, you could count all those guys on both your hands. And our crappy hunting absolutely does impact MT, it has the easiest regs to understand, the most accommodating season, a it has some deer. Everyone I know that hunts MT does it to shoot a deer, something you really don't get an opportunity to do in WA.

So true. The number of WA plates I have seen in SE Montana is significantly higher now than 10 years ago.

 

[DFS]

It’s a great place to place the license plate game. Likely one of the only places you have a chance at all 50 states and all Montana 56 counties.

 

[EYJONAS!]

Sooooo when are we storming the castle¿?

 

[JEL]

I have a landowner neighbor that has some fantastic mule deer habitat. He is fed up too and thinks our mule deer are in real trouble. Too damned much hunting pressure between all the seasons and is now dreading smoke poles. Fed up and done. He has been voicing his frustration with fwp.

 

[brockel]

The problem here in WA, and probably Oregon, is the general expansion of civilization and resulting interruption of migration corridors and disappearance of quality habitat.

Not the case for my slice of Montana. The land the mule deer inhabit hasn’t changed and the human population is less than it was 50 years ago. But the deer numbers for sure have

 

[Irrelevant]

Not the case for my slice of Montana. The land the mule deer inhabit hasn’t changed and the human population is less than it was 50 years ago. But the deer numbers for sure have

Maybe not, but it may happen. I would encourage all rural areas to pass restrictive zoning (i.e anti development) and start locking up open space via easements or purchases. It's a Helluva lot cheaper and easier to do it when you don't need than after you do.

No one ever regrets having more open space.

 

[brockel]

Maybe not, but it may happen. I would encourage all rural areas to pass restrictive zoning (i.e anti development) and start locking up open space via easements or purchases. It's a Helluva lot cheaper and easier to do it when you don't need than after you do.

No one ever regrets having more open space.

This helps weed a few out for November weather.

 

[SAJ-99]

Not the case for my slice of Montana. The land the mule deer inhabit hasn’t changed and the human population is less than it was 50 years ago. But the deer numbers for sure have

Aren’t you in Baker? Most of the mule deer I saw in the area were in corn fields. I don’t think anyone grew corn there 50 yrs ago, or even 10yrs. In fact, can’t remember seeing any over the previous 7 yrs. I saw plenty of changes from just a couple of years ago. I agree, nothing like a huge subdivision being developed or anything. But there are changes. ‘Civilization’ means more than just subdivisions and roads. It means <90day to mat corn replacing sagebrush. I can even make a guess in how much land I saw that had been manipulated from traditional cover.