Montana Mule Deer Mismanagement

[Eric Albus]

Something I saw as a response to these stats on social media is something like, “Those NR deer hunters support a lot of businesses or a lot of businesses depend on those hunters.”

It’s just another reason I think we should generally oppose any commercial endevours associated with wildlife we have control over (outfitting permits on public land, transferable tags, etc) and should rip the Band-Aid off now before the skin grows around it more. All of a sudden those hooks are in and will be economic arguments marshaled to resist any change that would serve the greater good.

It’s too late, the genie is out of the bottle.

This leaves us where we are at. The quick fix is LE permits. The prolonged approach (we still end up LE permits eventually) is pick your region, pick your area, pick weapon, last w
2 weeks season LE permit, ect..

 

[MTTW]

I have resisted the LE permit idea for ever and I don't think that it would address the actual problem in several units that I hunt. As evidence I would point people to the Bridger Mule deer thread.
I am at the point now that I would support LE permits anywhere that hunters could get them implemented. The harvest needs to be regulated in every unit and we need to know actual harvest numbers in all units. I don't think that there is any other way to get there.

Maybe take a lesson from the guys up in region 1 and split regions 6 and 7 and put 1/2 of each on LE permits. This way FWP still gets their money and those in opposition can still hunt in the area even if they don't draw. 1/2 of it will suck but the way it is going it will all suck and maybe permanently.

 

[antlerradar]

Something I saw as a response to these stats on social media is something like, “Those NR deer hunters support a lot of businesses or a lot of businesses depend on those hunters.”

It’s just another reason I think we should generally oppose any commercial endevours associated with wildlife we have control over (outfitting permits on public land, transferable tags, etc) and should rip the Band-Aid off now before the skin grows around it more. All of a sudden those hooks are in and will be economic arguments marshaled to resist any change that would serve the greater good.

When I was young there was several outfitters hunting the Custer. I even thought about getting into the business myself. Luckily I came to may senses before any money commitment.
Conditions on the ground and the market have for the most part regulated outfitters out of the public land outfitting business on the Custer.
I think there is still a place for outfitters on public, Wilderness back country for sure.
The goal should be to bring the quality of hunting public back to where the public will not notice a few outfitters.

 

[antlerradar]

I have resisted the LE permit idea for ever and I don't think that it would address the actual problem in several units that I hunt. As evidence I would point people to the Bridger Mule deer thread.
I am at the point now that I would support LE permits anywhere that hunters could get them implemented. The harvest needs to be regulated in every unit and we need to know actual harvest numbers in all units. I don't think that there is any other way to get there.

Maybe take a lesson from the guys up in region 1 and split regions 6 and 7 and put 1/2 of each on LE permits. This way FWP still gets their money and those in opposition can still hunt in the area even if they don't draw. 1/2 of it will suck but the way it is going it will all suck and maybe permanently.

I think that if we go down the LE road it will not be long and everything is LE for mule deer. Still plenty of opportunity to hunt whitetails and elk on years you don't draw a mule deer tag.

 

[Nick87]

how every Instagram, Facebook, YouTube, etc hunting group is promoting it, even if the guys who are coming here now start giving up on MT, there’s a fresh crop to replace them.

I'd say your spot on..not just in the west but even around home here I've seen this exact scenario play out. It's all about rotation. As soon as someone gives it uo there's 10 more waiting to take the spot who don't know any better. By the time they figure it out it's even worse and here comes the next crop of people to try it. I'd say we're in our second cycle here since the early 2000's. All come down to too many people not enough resource.

 

[Nameless Range]

It’s too late, the genie is out of the bottle.

This leaves us where we are at. The quick fix is LE permits. The prolonged approach (we still end up LE permits eventually) is pick your region, pick your area, pick weapon, last w
2 weeks season LE permit, ect..

I think you are right..

So right now in region 7 , 57% mule, deer bucks are killed by nonresidents. If we go to a LE model, region or district based, and it puts a ceiling on NR take at some thing like 20%, do you think that there will be a big push back from folks who have tied those non-residents to their incomes - be they outfitters, hotels, restaurants?


This thread is on Mule deer mismanagement.

In the Gulch my parents live in and in which I grew up, they have not had mule deer doe hunting for two years, because there are no goddamn mule deer there. In the next round of season setting, they are proposing that it be wide open - mule deer does and bucks on a general permit. They don’t fly surveys for this area, there’s currently no biologist hired for this area, and I’ve spent a few days hiking it this year, and there are no deer in this area. Something, something, CWD….

Mismanagement.

 

[Nameless Range]

I think that if we go down the LE road it will not be long and everything is LE for mule deer. Still plenty of opportunity to hunt whitetails and elk on years you don't draw a mule deer tag.

I don’t wanna derail, and I can’t speak to where you live, but in region 3, I do think we should be careful not to sacrifice too many whitetail at the altar of mule deer. I think their management matters and potentially requires change too.

 

[MTTW]

In the Gulch, my parents live in and in which I grew up, they have not had mule deer doe hunting for two years, because there are no goddamn mule deer there. In the next round of season setting, they are proposing that it be wide open - mule deer does and bucks on a general permit. They don’t fly surveys for this area, there’s currently no biologist hired for this area, and I’ve spent a few days hiking it this year, and there are no deer in this area. Something, something, CWD….

Mismanagement.

This brings up a couple of questions. If they were to go LE in the unit that you describe how would the permit allocation be determined? Would they just go with harvest numbers from last year or from 40 years ago? After all they are proposing a 40-year-old management plan. What effect would this have on the population? My guess is it would have negligible effect.
If they think that the unit can handle either sex hunting now, how is there any hope for the future whether we go LE or not?
What type of management would bring back the population?
Do these people ever leave the office?

I don't really expect you to answer these questions, I just asked them to illustrate that there is no winning this game IMO.

 

[FI460]

I think that if we go down the LE road it will not be long and everything is LE for mule deer. Still plenty of opportunity to hunt whitetails and elk on years you don't draw a mule deer tag.

I don’t wanna derail, and I can’t speak to where you live, but in region 3, I do think we should be careful not to sacrifice too many whitetail at the altar of mule deer. I think their management matters and potentially requires change too.

To jump off of the point @neffa3 was making, it would be wise to do something with mule deer (and elk and whitetail) before those alternatives aren't of decent quality.

If you don't draw in Oregon you're hunting blacktail units with 8-12% success on the other side of the state.

General elk units are often worse. Cascades rifle success went up to about 5% when they moved it back from October to November...

 

[DFS]

Bambistew brought up AK sheep, is there any other western state or region within where nonresident mule deer harvest exceeds resident? That just seems wrong, I am not knocking nonresident hunters as I like to be one occasionally.

 

[cgasner1]

The frustrating part is that 80% of that 57% that’s taken off our landscape probably doesn’t have a third tine.

 

[Bambistew]

The frustrating part is that 80% of that 57% that’s taken off our landscape probably doesn’t have a third tine.

Its easy to make a scapegoat, but FWP stats says otherwise. I pulled these numbers a few days ago.

Mule Deer 2016-2022 Average	N	R	R:NR
% of All MD Hunters by Residency	19%	81%
% of All MD harvest by Residency	30%	70%
% of 4 or More Points	71%	60%
% of All MD Harvest 4+	22%	42%
% of MD harvested less than 4pts	29%	40%
% of MD Does Harvested by Residency	27%	73%
% Hunters Who Harvest Does	2%	6%
% of All MD Harvest - Does	8%	22%
Avg Number of Hunters (Deer) FWP doesn't differentiate	28,418	122,087	4.3:1
Avg Number of Harvest (MD bucks)	11,995	27,643	2.3:1
Avg Number of Harvest (MD does)	3,299	8,653	2.6:1
Avg Number of 4pt+	8,481	16,632	2:01
Avg Number of less than 4pt	3,509	10,994	3.1:1

 

[cgasner1]

I know I haven’t pulled into many resident camps and saw 6-6 on forkys

 

[TheTone]

Its easy to make a scapegoat, but FWP stats says otherwise. I pulled these numbers a few days ago.

Mule Deer 2016-2022 Average	N	R	R:NR
% of All MD Hunters by Residency	19%	81%
% of All MD harvest by Residency	30%	70%
% of 4 or More Points	71%	60%
% of All MD Harvest 4+	22%	42%
% of MD harvested less than 4pts	29%	40%
% of MD Does Harvested by Residency	27%	73%
% Hunters Who Harvest Does	2%	6%
% of All MD Harvest - Does	8%	22%
Avg Number of Hunters (Deer) FWP doesn't differentiate	28,418	122,087	4.3:1
Avg Number of Harvest (MD bucks)	11,995	27,643	2.3:1
Avg Number of Harvest (MD does)	3,299	8,653	2.6:1
Avg Number of 4pt+	8,481	16,632	2:01
Avg Number of less than 4pt	3,509	10,994	3.1:1

Looks like residents have no one to blame but a small % of themselves for killing a pile of does

 

[cgasner1]

Looks like residents have no one to blame but a small % of themselves for killing a pile of does

It’s called like montamerica I don’t social media other than this but it’s on Facebook I believe

 

[easternmt]

LOL, you don't even know how much farther you have to fall!

I get it, you MT boys grew up being spoiled, and now think everything has gone to hell in a handbasket, but I can assure you, however bad you think it is, you're still spoiled. You're so far from the bottom you still can't see it.

You may call me spoiled for growing up with better hunting than most. But that still doesn’t mean I have to be alright or settle for crap! Why can’t it get back to where it was? Even if I didn’t get to hunt every year I’d be happier having a higher quality hunting experience than what we currently have. If we never voice our oppositions it will never change, at least for now I have a little bit of hope for something better.

 

[huntin24/7]

I think the biggest issue with the high non resident harvest of mule deer is that a disproportionate % of that harvest is on public/bma. In units where only 10-20% of of the land is accessible, probably 90% of the deer harvested by non res or residents from other parts of the state are on that small amount of public. I’m sure I’d do the same in their shoes and I’m sure when you drive a long ways to hunt and if you’re spending $1000 on licenses, it’s awefully hard to eat a tag.

 

[cgasner1]

You may call me spoiled for growing up with better hunting than most. But that still doesn’t mean I have to be alright or settle for crap! Why can’t it get back to where it was? Even if I didn’t get to hunt every year I’d be happier having a higher quality hunting experience than what we currently have. If we never voice our oppositions it will never change, at least for now I have a little bit of hope for something better.

Problem is most people don’t care. They don’t wanna hunt they wanna drive around and shoot a deer be it 90”-130” don’t matter. They aren’t already looking at odds and planning next years hunts. So until people wanna actually hunt it doesn’t change

 

[cgasner1]

I think the biggest issue with the high non resident harvest of mule deer is that a disproportionate % of that harvest is on public/bma. In units where only 10-20% of of the land is accessible, probably 90% of the deer harvested by non res or residents from other parts of the state are on that small amount of public. I’m sure I’d do the same in their shoes and I’m sure when you drive a long ways to hunt and if you’re spending $1000 on licenses, it’s awefully hard to eat a tag.

Na I’m going for a adventure if that money was the point it should have been used to buy beef

 

[Treeshark]

Its easy to make a scapegoat, but FWP stats says otherwise.

Awesome data, and quite eye-opening! Thanks for posting Bambistew